Introduction: Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead

Glenys Elizabeth Lady Kinnock, wife of the right honourable Neil Gordon Lord Kinnock, having been created Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead, of Holyhead in the County of Ynys Môn, was introduced and made the solemn affirmation, supported by Lord Judd and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon.

NHS: Incontinence Services
	 — 
	Question

Baroness Greengross: To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made in delivering the commitment set out in the 2001 National Service Framework for Older People to establish integrated incontinence services by 2004.

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, we have made good progress using some of the following tools: NICE guidelines, the national framework, audits conducted by the Royal College of Physicians, the productive community services programme and a commissioning programme aimed at female incontinence. We are aware of local variations in the provision of incontinence services and so continue to work for a high level of integrated incontinence services across the country.

Baroness Greengross: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that helpful reply. Bearing in mind that incontinence is the last great health taboo, a massive public health problem that affects 4 million to 6 million people—men, women and children—and more prevalent than asthma, epilepsy and even dementia, will the Government consider adding incontinence management to the list of national health improvement programmes?

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, the health improvement programmes are currently focused on the priorities set out by my noble friend Lord Darzi in the next-stage review, but we know that a modest investment by the NHS in developing early intervention and assessment services would produce important benefits in terms of a better quality of life for patients and significant cost savings, so continence care is being taken seriously by the Department of Health. It will be incorporated into a later phase of a package for older people in order to promote improvements to health and well-being in later life.

Baroness Tonge: My Lords, that is all very fine, but at the last count only a fifth of trusts actually had someone in post who was in charge of incontinence services, which simply will not do. Will the Minister say whether there is a date by which we can expect someone responsible and trained in handling incontinence problems to be in post in all trusts? Will she also say whether incontinence products other than the usual, bog standard ones—I apologise for the pun—can be made available to meet the very different needs of incontinence sufferers?

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, it is clear that the management of incontinence issues has to be developed and delivered at the local level. The noble Baroness is correct to point out the need to make available the right guidance and support to deliver these services. Those things are in place, but we now need to make sure that our monitoring services pinpoint those areas that are not delivering a proper level of care to patients with incontinence. The development of products is a matter that we have under review. I cannot give the noble Baroness any more detail on that now, so I will write to her.

Baroness Wilkins: My Lords, as a spinal cord-injured person, I declare an interest. Maintaining our continence is fundamental to ensuring our dignity, yet the current practice of some PCTs is resulting in some people being forced to use basic products that do not meet their needs. Can my noble friend give an assurance that the NHS will provide users with the most appropriate product, not the cheapest?

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point. Good practice in incontinence services recommends that a range of pads should be available in all categories, including bedpans and a variety of sizes of pads with different absorbencies. Rationing is totally unacceptable and the Government have made it completely clear that incontinence pads should be provided in sufficient quantities to meet individuals' needs.

Lord Ashley of Stoke: My Lords, this is not an easy subject, but it is made more complex by the insistence of primary care trusts on adopting their own policies, thereby causing a great deal of confusion. That means that people are deprived of important medical facilities and treatments. The Government should intervene, regardless of their present stance.

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, there can be no doubt that PCTs have been given the message that the Government regard incontinence care as a priority. They have been given the guidance, the toolkits and the support. Most are doing well. We have to bear down on those that are not doing well and we have to make sure that they improve the services.

Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, the Minister mentioned monitoring. I understand that NICE is undertaking a review of the quality and outcomes framework indicators. Would this not be a good moment to have a look at these again and will the Government support the inclusion of incontinence care in the review?

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, the noble Baroness is right. In April 2009, NICE took over the responsibility for overseeing a new independent process for prioritising, developing and reviewing the quality and outputs framework of what happens in clinical and health improvements. Any new topic for inclusion in what is known as the QOF will need to be made to NICE as part of this process. The noble Baroness points to an important matter. The process of prioritisation of topics will be made by the advisory committee and decisions on whether to include things will be based on evidence of clinical and cost effectiveness. I think that I feel a campaign coming on.

Earl Howe: My Lords, the Minister gave what I am sure will be a very well received assurance to the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, but the fact remains that there is a great deal of concern out there about a postcode lottery. Will the Government consider putting in place a system to monitor the practices of PCTs to ensure that some of the commissioning processes that I am aware of, including local formularies and very restrictive tendering procedures, are not used to the detriment of incontinence patients?

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, what we will find with world-class commissioning and its monitoring process is that this is an issue that will be tackled at that level. Where PCTs are not using commissioning processes that provide the end result of a good-quality service for incontinence sufferers, that will be highlighted and we will need to make sure that we pick it up.

Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the Minister talked about prioritising incontinence services within the health service. Can she let the House know how many priorities there are within the health service? Surely each one that is added devalues the rest.

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, my point was that we regard this as a priority, but the delivery of the service has to be done at local level. That is for obvious reasons: the resources are at local level. The Government have said, "We regard this as important and this is how we think you need to deliver a proper service".

Health: Tuberculosis
	 — 
	Question

Baroness Masham of Ilton: To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they accept the recommendation of the Health Protection Agency that there should be at least two mobile X-ray units for tuberculosis screening in London; and, if so, when the second unit will become operational.

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, my department accepts the recommendations of the Health Protection Agency evaluation, which clearly showed the benefits of the mobile X-ray unit. We will continue to fund the mobile unit through the find and treat programme, which actively screens homeless hostels across London until 2010. It will then be up to the London commissioners to reach a consensus on future support for find and treat, including whether there should be a second mobile x-ray unit.

Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, which was not quite what I had hoped. Is she aware that there is now an exceedingly serious situation in London with drug-resistant tuberculosis among the homeless and within the prisons, which is where the mobile unit goes? The recommendation was that there should be at least two units, but the Health Protection Agency has actually recommended that there should be three. The only unit that there is at present is now getting very old, so they desperately need another one. That would enable them also to do schools and children.

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I am absolutely in agreement with the noble Baroness, as are the Government. What is required here is that the London PCTs agree to take this programme forward. The cost of one mobile unit per PCT in London would be £16,000 per year, and the cost of two would be £32,000 per year. We are not talking about enormous sums, but it will require co-operation among the London PCTs. We are doing our very best to encourage this.
	I know that the noble Baroness has a particular interest in TB in prisons, and I am very pleased to report that we are funding the installation of screening systems in eight of the high turnover prisons, with a link into their local acute trusts. Those are Belmarsh, Brixton, Pentonville, Wandsworth and Wormwood Scrubs, with three other prisons outside London being chosen for those facilities later this year.

Lord Walpole: My Lords, I am not absolutely clear who is meant to make the capital payment for these things and who is meant to run them. Is it the same person, and which budget does it come from?

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, because of the concern about the prevalence of TB in London, the Government have centrally funded what is called the find and treat programme, including a mobile X-ray unit, until 2010. After that, the London PCTs will combine to take on the programme, if the evaluation proves to be right, and the mobile units. We now know through the HPA of the recommendation to have two units. We are urging the London PCTs to undertake to pick up the funding in 2010 and to run that programme.

Baroness Tonge: My Lords, when the find and treat programme was set up, it was a service for socially excluded groups. Does that include failed asylum seekers, who still do not qualify for NHS treatment? They may not have TB when they become failed asylum seekers but can contract it while awaiting deportation, especially if they have underlying conditions such as diabetes and AIDS, for which they cannot at the moment get treatment under the National Health Service.

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, arriving passengers who claim asylum at the port of entry are referred for medical examination and, indeed, assessment for TB. If it is found that they have TB, they will receive treatment. Failed asylum seekers will also receive treatment. This is a health protection issue, apart from anything else. Our aim is to locate the people who are most vulnerable, assess whether they have contracted TB and then provide treatment.

Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior: My Lords, when the House of Lords Select Committee on fighting infection visited New York, we were most impressed when we visited the Harlem Hospital to discover its programme of tuberculosis detection and control. It has a very good TB-screening programme as well as a programme of directly observed therapy, or DOT. Is DOT also applied to the down-and-out population of London?

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, the programme in New York was successful and DOT was used. The success of that programme has informed how we treat the most vulnerable groups of the homeless, in particular, once we have identified them. About half of them now receive their treatment through the directly observed treatment method so that they are being supported.

Lord Desai: My Lords, I recall that the Chief Medical Officer announced a TB strategy five years ago. What has been the effect of that plan?

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, in 2004, the Chief Medical Officer produced a TB action plan with 10 actions to bring TB under control. We are committed to tackling TB. The action plan involves reducing the number of people at risk of being newly infected by TB, providing high-quality treatment and care for them, and maintaining low levels of drug resistance, which has already been referred to, for multi-drug TB. We do this in several ways, including raising awareness of TB within the medical profession. The incidence of TB in the population has been stable for the past two years. The Care Quality Commission's assessments of how these issues are delivered will include TB within the broad framework of how organisations are delivering at local level.

Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, what links do the Government have with organisations such as St Mungo's or the Barka community, which go out to rough sleepers, homeless people and, increasingly, failed asylum seekers?

Baroness Thornton: My Lords, one reason that the programme of find and treat in London is so successful is that we work with those organisations. Co-ordination between all the organisations in London that work with homeless people and drug abusers is vital.

Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords—

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, it is time to move on.

War Crimes
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	Question

Lord Hamilton of Epsom: To ask Her Majesty's Government, following the High Court judgment on 8 April that four Rwandans suspected of genocide could not be extradited from the United Kingdom to Rwanda, how many suspected war criminals and persons convicted of genocide are living in the United Kingdom; and against how many of those action has been taken.

Lord Brett: My Lords, the Government are clear that individuals who have committed war crimes or crimes against humanity should not be given a safe haven in the United Kingdom. We screen immigrant applicants for involvement in war crimes. Since April 2004, the war crimes team of the UK Border Agency has considered 2,869 cases. It has recommended refusal of asylum or other immigration status in 421 cases and referred 30 cases to the Metropolitan Police.

Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My Lords, many people will be extremely surprised to know that people suspected of war crimes are in this country at all. What are the Government doing about those people who entered this country prior to 2004 who may be guilty of war crimes?

Lord Brett: My Lords, as I said, this country should not provide a safe haven. That also requires us to look at ways in which we can ensure it. The Government are considering whether our own law can be strengthened. Information on the number of suspected war criminals can be collected only through international co-operation, NGOs and many other parts of the community. At present, we do not have that information to hand.

Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, my noble friend mentioned the problem of those who are known to be war criminals, but what about those who come in clandestinely or when we do not know their background of potential war crimes? How does he respond to the dilemma that most of those accused of war crimes by definition come from countries where we have doubts about their legal system? Is there not a danger that this judgment will give a signal to those guilty or suspected of war crimes that they have only to come to this country, clandestinely or otherwise, to find safe haven?

Lord Brett: My Lords, that is why we have screened applicants for involvement in war crimes since 2004. That screening process looks at countries of origin, the perpetrators of conflict, and the areas and types of conflict. It is also why we are looking at whether we can strengthen UK law.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for recent conversations which some of us have had with Ministers concerning potential changes in our own law relating to genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity, may I remind him of the introduction into the United States Senate only last week of a crimes against humanity Bill? That Bill provides for jurisdiction founded not on residence but on presence. Will the Minister confirm that the Government are looking sympathetically at potential changes in UK law of a similar effect to ensure that the United Kingdom is not a safe haven for war criminals?

Lord Brett: My Lords, we remain certain that tackling crimes of genocide and other such atrocities requires international co-operation. The Government will continue to work with other countries, of course including the United States and the European Union, to ensure that criminal justice systems around the world are designed to deal with cases of this nature. We also consider the role of international institutions in these matters. I have no personal knowledge of the matter before the Senate in the United States, but it is clear that it would be of both interest and education in terms of what we are seeking to do in this country.

Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, does the Minister not agree that the most recent case in the High Court has advertised pretty widely that there is a loophole in our legislation and has therefore made the risk of this country being seen as a safe haven for these people considerably greater? There is therefore surely great urgency to the Government making up their mind and using legislation currently before this House as a means of blocking that loophole.

Lord Brett: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the result in the High Court is likely to be a form of encouragement for some; we are seeking for our screening to be a deterrent for others. However, as the noble Lord said, there are amendments to the Coroners and Justice Bill to be discussed next week which will encourage debate around this whole subject. I am sure that it will be both educational and informative.

Lord Vinson: My Lords, does the Minister think that the Human Rights Act might have some bearing on the interpretation of these cases and, if this is the case, was it ever envisaged that the Human Rights Act could be used in this way?

Lord Brett: My Lords, the Human Rights Act is a very valuable piece of legislation which we conform to. It occasionally provides judgments which we might not find politically convenient or in the best interests of ourselves as a single nation. They are, however, judgments in the best interests of humanity. As the Human Rights Act protects people in law, I do not believe we should disagree with it.

Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, while I do not disagree with what the Minister has just said, I wonder whether he would deal with the questions put to him by my noble friend and by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. Essentially, they are asking whether the Government will be sympathetic to plugging the loophole in some form of amendment in the pending Bill.

Lord Brett: My Lords, I will resist the temptation to move in that direction, other than to say that there have been quite wide discussions with the Minister, my noble friend Lord Bach, who is carrying forward the legislation in this House. The Government are actively considering a way to move forward in strengthening UK law and I am sure that next week's debate will be illuminating.

Lord Swinfen: My Lords, when dealing with suspected war criminals, what consideration is given to the human rights of those against whom the crimes have been perpetrated?

Lord Brett: My Lord, there is a danger of drawing moral judgments in situations where we do not have all the information and knowledge to hand. We are outraged by what we can clearly see is genocide in Rwanda and other countries but we have a legal system which requires us to conform to providing evidence, which is difficult; and to having a prosecution which can be successful, which is difficult. We also have an independent judiciary who will judge whether deportation, as in this case, will take people to a country where they will get a fair trial, where witnesses will be protected and where the human rights of each individual will be protected.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, can the legislation that the Minister is contemplating be retrospective so that we can get rid of the Rwandan war criminals and any others who may be sheltering in our territory?

Lord Brett: My Lords, the Liberal Democrat Benches often tempt me. On three occasions they have tempted me. Over the years in this House, fascinated as I am by the Liberal Democrat contributions, I have learned to resist temptation.

Asylum Seekers: Detention of Children
	 — 
	Question

Baroness Williams of Crosby: To ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have to cease the detention of children of asylum seekers and their carers in detention centres for periods exceeding one week.

Lord Brett: My Lords, we all believe that it is much better that those families who have been found by the courts not to need our protection should go home under their own steam, and we provide help for them to do so. We detain families only as a last resort and for as short a time as possible when they refuse to return voluntarily. The alternative would be to separate the families. Speeding up the asylum process also seeks to address this problem.

Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I trust the Minister will be tempted when I say that many families are affected by the inability to return home to areas of great danger to themselves, of which Zimbabwe is just one example.
	The Children's Commissioner, Sir Al Aynsley-Green, has made it clear that the detention of children is "harmful to their health and wellbeing". Furthermore, the Chief Inspector of Prisons, on her recent visit to Yarl's Wood and other detention centres, found that in the past four months alone no fewer than 83 children had been detained for either 28 days or longer, with no clear indication when they would come out of detention. Therefore, will Minister consider looking at community-based schemes for families who are awaiting return to their homes or who may not be able to be returned to their homes, as has happened in other countries? Will he also consider that those families who have been in Britain for many years, in some cases with children born and entirely educated here, might be eligible for a humanitarian system of amnesty, because it is difficult to return people who from birth onwards have had no links with any country except our own?

Lord Brett: My Lords, I and the Government have much sympathy with those points of view, which is why the UK Border Agency seeks to deal with these things sensitively and systematically, to take on board criticism when it is offered and to make the situation fair. The facts are that in the first quarter of 2009, 95 children were removed on leaving detention. Of those, 30 children were in detention at 31 March, with 20 detained for seven days or fewer; five for 15 to 28 days; five for 29 days and fewer than two months; and five for two months. However, I agree entirely that we should look for community-based solutions. There is a further experimental project in Glasgow, which is moving in that direction.

The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, have the Minister and his noble friend Lord West of Spithead plans to visit the immigration detention centre at Yarl's Wood where these families are held? Will he consider consulting the Tavistock and Portman NHS trust, which is expert in this area, on what support it might be prepared to offer to families and staff who manage these distressing experiences at Yarl's Wood?

Lord Brett: My Lords, my noble friend Lord West intended to visit Yarl's Wood and was prevented by an outbreak of chicken pox which placed the centre in quarantine. I believe that he intends to complete that visit at an early opportunity. I myself intend to visit, having had to deal with several questions on Yarl's Wood. It is always much better to deal with things that you have seen for yourself. As for the Tavistock trust and other organisations, we are always happy to discuss how we can improve the situation. However, at the end of the day we are dealing with people who can leave this country voluntarily but are refusing to do so, having been through a legal process that has found clearly that they should return to the homeland from which they came.

Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, while I recognise that there is difficulty surrounding immigration, I believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, makes a powerful point about children who have lived with Christian asylum-seeker families in this country for a number of years. They have been educated here and would, in chaotic situations such as those Peshawar or the Swat valley, instantly be identifiable victims for religious extremists. Are the Government prepared to ignore that reality?

Lord Brett: My Lords, much of the reality is set by the appeals that asylum seekers have and the legal process that they go through. On the circumstances that the noble Baroness and the noble Lord have mentioned, when people have been born in this country, individual case officers look at the situation. We do not have a cold, hard heart towards the children of asylum seekers, failed or genuine, and we try to treat them with the sensitivity that they deserve. However, we come back to the point that if we are satisfied that there is not to be persecution in the country to which they would return and there is a country to which they can be returned, it is the right thing to do.

The Lord Bishop of Bradford: My Lords, I am grateful for that particular answer, and to hear that the Government do not have a "cold, hard heart" towards children. I have an interest in this matter, particularly as someone who was told that he would have been arrested, if he had not been a bishop, for my involvement in causing a dawn arrest to be bungled. These dawn arrests happen at six in the morning, with teams of people who are almost exclusively male coming in like storm troopers wearing protective jackets. I shall come to the question in a moment, but I know of a case in which there was only one female officer for a mother with three children, who had to be supervised by males. I think of other cases in which children were left in their nappies for six hours and in their bedclothes with no ability to be changed. What guidelines are there for allowing such treatment and are there are any plans for ending those dawn raids?

Lord Brett: My Lords, the pejorative term "dawn raid" is not one that we recognise in the UK Border Agency's activities. No visit is made before 6.30 in the morning and it is normally preceded by seeking entry in the normal, peaceful manner of ringing the bell or knocking on the door. I am distressed to hear of the right reverend Prelate's experience. If he cares to write to me with chapter and verse—I am sorry about the pun—I would be more than happy to look at the matter. But it is not the policy of the agency and certainly not the Government's policy that we put people in that situation. When a team goes to visit, it is made up as determined by risk assessment. If there is no criminal element involved, it is not thought necessary to do it team-handed. I am surprised by what the right reverend Prelate says, because I understand that, normally, female officers and others who are trained to deal with children and who are part of the team go on those occasions. I should be interested to hear from him on that and I shall certainly seek to investigate.

Baroness Hanham: My Lords—

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords—

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am very sorry, but we have reached 30 minutes.

Work and Families (Increase of the Maximum Amount) Order 2009

European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (Cariforum Economic Partnership Agreement) Order 2009

National Minimum Wage Regulations 1999 (Amendment) Regulations 2009

ACAS Code of Practice on Time Off for Trade Union Duties and Activities

Legislative and Regulatory Reform (Regulatory Functions) (Amendment) Order 2009

Companies (Share Capital and Acquisition by Company of its Own Shares) Regulations 2009

Community Interest Company (Amendment) Regulations 2009

Companies Act 2006 (Consequential Amendments) (Uncertificated Securities) Order 2009

Companies Act 2006 (Consequential Amendments) (Taxes and National Insurance) Order 2009

Companies Act 2006 (Consequential Amendments, Transitional Provisions and Savings) Order 2009
	 — 
	Motion to Refer to Grand Committee

Moved By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
	That the draft orders, regulations and code of practice be referred to a Grand Committee.
	Motion agreed.

Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009 (Consequential Modifications) Order 2009

Link to the Grand Committee Debate

Dunfermline Building Society Compensation Scheme, Resolution Fund and Third Party Compensation Order 2009

Link to the Grand Committee Debate

Amendments to Law (Resolution of Dunfermline Building Society) (No. 2) Order 2009

Link to the Grand Committee Debate

European Organization for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2009

Link to the Grand Committee Debate

Motion to Approve

Moved By Lord Davies of Oldham
	That the draft orders laid before the House on 1, 3, 4 and 15 June be approved.
	Relevant documents: 16th and 17th Reports from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 24 June.
	Motion agreed.

Arrangement of Business
	 — 
	Announcement

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, with the leave of the House, my noble friend Lady Morgan of Drefelin will repeat the Statement on 21st Century Schools immediately after government Amendment 149 on the Coroners and Justice Bill, which is at the end of Part 1 of the Bill.
	This may also be a convenient moment for me to set out how we intend to proceed with consideration on the Parliamentary Standards Bill, which is currently being considered in the other place. The Bill is expected to arrive in this House for a First Reading this week. The usual channels have agreed to take Second Reading on Wednesday 8 July, Committee stage on Tuesday 14 July and, finally, Report and Third Reading on Monday 20 July. I hope that this strikes a good and reasonable balance between the Government's aim of achieving Royal Assent by 21 July and providing the House with the opportunity to scrutinise in detail the provisions in the Bill.

Lord Barnett: My Lords, can my noble friend tell us what the hurry is?

Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I should have thought that the interest in this matter was self-evident.

Coroners and Justice Bill

Bill Main Page
	Copy of the Bill
	Explanatory Notes
	Amendments
	7th Report from the Delegated Powers Committee
	8th Report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights 
	16th Report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights

Committee (4th Day)

Clause 32 : Appeals to the Chief Coroner
	Amendment 129
	 Moved by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
	129: Clause 32, page 18, line 45, leave out "on a question of law"

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: Amendment 129 is a probing amendment. It has been tabled following queries raised by Inquest with the Ministry of Justice. As a general feeling, the new simplified appeals procedure is welcome. It affords an opportunity for bereaved people to raise concerns in a more informal manner than they were previously able to do. However, a concern arises from the way the Bill appears to be worded. The concern is that the only further appeal is to the Court of Appeal on a point of law. What exactly does that mean? Does it mean, as it would appear, that the possibility of any challenge by way of judicial review in respect of most, if not all, coronial decisions would no longer exist? Does it mean that where there has been a question of process no appeal would be applicable? Does it mean that if clinical information has not been provided to the inquiry no appeal could be undertaken?
	Inquest queried the matter with the Ministry of Justice because it wanted to know whether it would still be an option judicially to review a coroner's decision or whether someone would have to go directly to the Chief Coroner for that type of decision. Interestingly, it received two conflicting replies. One said that judicial review remains an option; the other said that it had to go to the Chief Coroner. I should be grateful if the Minister could clarify the position for the Committee. Will funding be available to families? Will judicial review remain an option and in what circumstances; and, if not, what will the process actually entail? I look forward to the Minister's reply. I beg to move.

Lord Tunnicliffe: Amendment 129 is about appeals. Under the Bill's new appeals system, an interested person appeals against a coroner's decision, first, to the Chief Coroner. If dissatisfied with the Chief Coroner's decision, they may then, under Clause 32(8), appeal, on a question of law only, to the Court of Appeal. In practice, this means that they can appeal to the Court of Appeal only if they think that the Chief Coroner has not applied the law correctly when considering the decision made by the senior coroner which is being appealed. The appellant cannot appeal to the Court of Appeal as to the merits of the decision made by the Chief Coroner. A procedure already exists for challenging a decision in these circumstances and that is to bring proceedings for judicial review.
	The purpose of Amendment 129 is to enable interested persons to appeal to the Court of Appeal on the merits of the decision made by the Chief Coroner when he or she was determining an appeal against a senior coroner's decision. This would be in addition to appealing the Chief Coroner's decision on a question of law and may be prompted by a wish to give bereaved people a greater right of appeal.
	The new system of appeals will radically change and simplify the procedure for bereaved people and other interested persons to appeal against many coroners' decisions and ensure that any bereaved person who is dissatisfied with a coroner's decision will receive a fair hearing from the Chief Coroner—who will be a circuit or High Court judge—or one of his deputies. At present, the decisions of coroners can be challenged only by way of judicial review and so the new appeal route is a great improvement on this. We do not believe that it is necessary to widen this even more so as to enable the Court of Appeal to review decisions made by the Chief Coroner unless a question of law is involved. To do so is likely to overburden the Court of Appeal with appeals from interested persons in relation to decisions which have already been reconsidered by the Chief Coroner and where, for the reason I have given above, the appeal stands little prospect of success. There is also the need for finality so that decisions are not being reviewed endlessly.
	There is only one exception to this process: where, under Schedule 8 to the Bill, a coroner's investigation is carried out by a High Court judge or retired Court of Appeal judge. If an interested person wishes to appeal their decision, the first appeal will be to the Court of Appeal, under Clause 32, because of the seniority of the judge who carried out the investigation. There may be some circumstances where an interested person has concerns about a coroner's decision not listed in Clause 32. If this occurs, then, again, the remedy would be judicially to review the decision as at present although the new bespoke appeal system should mean that this rarely happens.
	Judicial review has not in any way been ruled out. However, we would expect an interested party to appeal to the Chief Coroner before bringing proceedings. As to the possibility of legal aid support for judicial review, I have no reason to believe that it would be handled any differently from any other judicial review. If there is a difference, however, I will write to the noble Baroness. In view of this explanation, I hope that the noble Baroness will consider withdrawing her amendment.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying the procedure. Indeed, I found it difficult to follow the procedure during the description. I hope that in simplified guidance there may be an algorithm provided for the bereaved to take them through the different options available.
	However, it is useful to have the clarification. I fully appreciate that there has to be finality in any appeals process; one has to reach the end of the road at some time. With the caveat that I should like to read carefully what has been said, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
	Amendment 129 withdrawn.
	Clause 32 agreed.
	Clause 33 : Investigation by Chief Coroner or by judge, former judge or former coroner
	Amendment 130
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	130: Clause 33, page 19, line 8, after first "or" insert "the Coroner for Treasure or"
	Amendment 130 agreed.
	Clause 33, as amended, agreed.
	Amendment 131 not moved.
	Schedule 8 : Investigation by Chief Coroner or by judge, former judge or former coroner
	Amendment 132
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	132: Schedule 8, page 134, line 31, at end insert—
	"Investigation by Coroner for Treasure
	(1) The Chief Coroner may direct the Coroner for Treasure to conduct an investigation into a person's death.
	(2) Where a direction is given under this paragraph—
	(a) the Coroner for Treasure must conduct the investigation;
	(b) the Coroner for Treasure has the same functions in relation to the body and the investigation as would be the case if he or she were a senior coroner in whose area the body was situated;
	(c) no senior coroner, area coroner or assistant coroner has any functions in relation to the body or the investigation.
	(3) Accordingly, a reference in a statutory provision (whenever made) to a senior coroner is to be read, where appropriate, as including the Coroner for Treasure exercising functions by virtue of this paragraph."
	Amendment 132 agreed.
	Schedule 8, as amended, agreed.
	Clause 34 agreed.
	Clause 35 : Coroners regulations
	Amendment 132A not moved.
	Clause 35 agreed.
	Amendment 133
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	133: After Clause 35, insert the following new Clause—
	"Treasure regulations
	(1) The Lord Chancellor may make regulations for regulating the practice and procedure at or in connection with investigations under this Part concerning objects that are or may be treasure or treasure trove (other than the practice and procedure at or in connection with inquests concerning such objects).
	Regulations under this section are referred to in this Part as "Treasure regulations".
	(2) Treasure regulations may be made only if—
	(a) the Lord Chief Justice, or
	(b) a judicial office holder (as defined in section 109(4) of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 (c. 4)) nominated for the purposes of this subsection by the Lord Chief Justice,
	agrees to the making of the regulations.
	(3) Treasure regulations may make—
	(a) provision for the discharge of an investigation (including provision as to fresh investigations following discharge);
	(b) provision for or in connection with the suspension or resumption of investigations;
	(c) provision for the delegation by the Coroner for Treasure (or an Assistant Coroner for Treasure) of any of his or her functions;
	(d) provision allowing information to be disclosed or requiring information to be given;
	(e) provision giving to the Lord Chancellor or the Chief Coroner power to require information from the Coroner for Treasure;
	(f) provision requiring a summary of specified information given to the Chief Coroner by virtue of paragraph (e) to be included in reports under section 29;
	(g) provision of the kind mentioned in paragraph (h) or (i) of section 35(3).
	This subsection is not to be read as limiting the power in subsection (1).
	(4) Treasure regulations may apply any provisions of Coroners rules.
	(5) Where Treasure regulations apply any provisions of Coroners rules, those provisions—
	(a) may be applied to any extent;
	(b) may be applied with or without modifications;
	(c) may be applied as amended from time to time."
	Amendment 133 agreed.
	Clause 36 : Coroners rules
	Amendment 134
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	134: Clause 36, page 20, line 45, after "32(1)," insert "(2A),"
	Amendment 134 agreed.
	Amendment 134A
	 Moved by Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde
	134A: Clause 36, page 21, line 12, after second "to" insert—
	"(i) interested persons, and
	(ii) "

Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: I would also like to speak to Amendments 136A and 137A. Amendment 134A is straightforward. It applies to page 21 of the Bill, at subsection (2). It would simply insert before "persons", "interested persons". This emanates from my interest in the Bill in trying to ensure that the families of military personnel who have lost their lives in the duty of the country are involved in the process. Whereas this will currently not be disclosed except to persons specified in the direction, I am seeking that the interested persons be named in the direction. Amendment 136A is linked with the provision in that, if accepted by the Minister, it defines what an interested person is. That is covered on page 22 under Clause 38(2)(a), which specifies clearly that an interested person is,
	"a spouse, civil partner, partner, parent, child, brother, sister, grandparent, grandchild, child of a brother or sister, stepfather, stepmother, half-brother or half-sister".
	In other words, it is a whole range of family members who may be affected by the death of service personnel. That would put in the Bill clearly what an interested person is, so there would be no way that in the subsequent regulations any of that group of people could be excluded from being consulted and involved.
	Amendment 137A is slightly different. It leaves out Clause 36(3)(a). After the Government's decision to drop Clause 11, I was in some confusion as to whether the clause would remain in the Bill. My concern, if it remains in the Bill, is to seek to remove it from the Bill. The reason is that as it stands a coroner may rule and give a direction excluding specified persons from an inquest or part of an inquest if the coroner is of the opinion that the interests of national security so require. I am not against the best interests of national security. I am concerned that here we could have members of the family of the bereaved excluded from some parts of the coroner's case. That situation will do nothing to assist the families. It implies that they should not have the full facts of how their loved ones lost their lives, which I do not think is the intention of the Bill.
	If this paragraph were deleted, it would mean that in any circumstance the members of the family of the person who lost their life, as a member of military personnel, would be entitled to attend the coroner's inquest, to have a reason given and to hear what is said rather than be excluded from possibly substantial parts of the hearing. If that were to happen, they would never have a full understanding of what happened when their husband or other member of their family lost their life in the service of their country and, one could also say, they would never arrive at closure. I hope that the Minister is able to accept the three amendments that I have put forward. I beg to move.

Lord Pannick: I support the observations of the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, particularly in relation to Amendment 137A. Amendment 137B in my name concerns Clause 36(3)(b), which would confer a power to make regulations allowing for a direction which would exclude specified persons from an inquest if the senior coroner were of the opinion that this would be likely to improve the quality of the evidence of a witness under the age of 18.
	I have two concerns about Clause 36(3)(b). The first is the breadth of the power. It is not restricted by any requirement to ensure that these rules allow for such exclusion only where necessary because there is no other means of avoiding serious harm to the young person; nor is it restricted by any requirement to ensure that the rules must balance the interests of the young person giving evidence against the interests of another person in remaining present—for example, the interests of the person who may be said to have been responsible for the death in question. I ask the Minister why we need such a broad power when, so far as I know, no such power is found in criminal courts when young people give evidence, which they do regularly.
	My second concern about Clause 36(3)(b) is that, on present drafting, it would allow for rules to authorise the senior coroner to exclude all members of the press. Even if there is a case for a rule-making power which allows the senior coroner to exclude individuals from an inquest, I do not accept that it is appropriate to exclude members of the press simply because the young witness might, understandably, find the experience of giving evidence less traumatic the fewer people there are present. Surely the presence of the press at an inquest helps to maintain high standards and avoid rumours and allegations of any cover-up. When members of the public are excluded from a hearing, it is surely all the more important that the press are allowed to remain present. That has long been the practice and the law in youth courts. The Minister will know that under the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999, when a child or young person gives evidence in criminal proceedings and their evidence is likely to be impeded by their fear or distress, and either the proceedings relate to a sexual offence or there is a fear of witness intimidation, the court has a power under Section 25 to make a direction excluding specified persons from the court. Section 25 adds that a representative of the press must be allowed to remain. Section 25 also helpfully provides that in such cases, the proceedings are still to be treated as having occurred in public for the purposes of libel law.
	So if it is necessary to retain Clause 36(3)(b) in some form, can the Minister tell us why there is no protection similar to Section 25 of the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act, including similar protections for press freedom, in the coroners' context? These points that I have made about Clause 36(3)(b) are also relevant to the drafting of Clause 36(3)(a) and I ask the Minister to think again about these aspects of Clause 36.

Lord Neill of Bladen: I support both the amendment moved by the noble Baroness for the reasons she gave and the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for the reasons he gave. An explanation is seriously needed as to why existing Children Act legislation cannot be used as a model. I also have a problem with the closing words of Clause 36(3)(b) where it talks about the coroner being of the opinion that having the evidence given without the excluded persons being there,
	"would be likely to improve the quality of the witness's evidence".
	That seems almost to be asking for a mini-trial within an inquest. I do not know how else, on any fair basis, the coroner can possibly arrive at that opinion without allowing it to be tested by questions from interested parties.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I hesitate to speak on this group of amendments, but I feel that I have to. I support the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde. Indeed, the requirement to specify who the interested persons are relates to an amendment which I will be moving later, and her points are well made. I have a concern, though, about removing the ability of a coroner to exclude certain persons when a child is giving evidence. I say this based on our experience in south Wales, where children in a small community have been intimidated and frightened of speaking out.
	I understand the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, in relation to the press but wonder whether there need to be reporting restrictions so that if members of the press had to breach them, they would know that they were doing so but for good reason, which would afford some protection to the child. I would certainly welcome the assurance he mentioned about libel law being protected whether the hearing was in public or not.
	I also ask the Minister whether, if we completely adopted the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and were a full signatory to it, that might solve the problem in protecting children when they are giving evidence in what is often a desperately stressful situation because it often relates to the death of their own sibling. That is why I have a concern with simply deleting Clause 36(3)(b).

Lord Tunnicliffe: The rule-making power contained in Clause 36(2)(e) is intended to deal with a specific concern that has been brought to our attention by representatives of UK Special Forces personnel and their families, including bereaved family members of UK Special Forces personnel who have died on active service. This power will enable rules to be made allowing a coroner to give a direction that the names or other details will not be disclosed as part of the investigation or inquest, except to people specified in his or her direction.
	The intention is to make rules enabling the names of UK Special Forces personnel who have died to be withheld. This will allow them and their families to retain their anonymity and it repays the duty of confidentiality imposed on UK Special Forces personnel during their period of service. This measure has been introduced as a result of approaches from representatives of UK Special Forces personnel and their families, including bereaved family members. This power might also be used to enable a name to be withheld in circumstances when a bereaved family or a witness's safety would be jeopardised if their identity were made public.
	I understand that taken together, Amendments 134A and 136A would mean that a coroner could disclose the deceased's name not only to persons specified in the direction but to a bereaved family. I believe that that is unnecessary as the bereaved family would know the identity of the deceased member of the UK Special Forces. In other cases, it may not be appropriate for the bereaved family to know the identity of a person subject to a coroner's direction, for example, if the person was a witness who was in fear of their own or their family's safety. If it was appropriate for the bereaved family to know the identity of such a witness, the coroner could specify them as persons to whom the identity should be disclosed.
	Amendment 137A would remove Clause 36(3)(a), which largely replicates the existing provisions in rule 17 of the coroners rules. It enables a coroner to hold all or part of an inquest in camera if the coroner is of the opinion that it is necessary to do so in the interests of national security. That may be necessary, for example, for an inquest that needs to cover sensitive military operations. I understand that there may be some concerns that in cases where the deceased person is a member of the Armed Forces, this could lead to members of the deceased person's family and their personal representatives being excluded from attending part of the inquest. It is a concern that I fully understand, but I know that on those rare occasions when the provision has been used by coroners in respect of military operations, most families understand why they have been excluded. I believe that this is another area where the Chief Coroner may consider issuing guidance to coroners. Such guidance could outline in what circumstances the coroner may consider whether to hold part of an inquest in camera in the interests of national security.
	When it is necessary to exclude bereaved family members and their personal representatives, as well as the wider public, guidance might also deal with the need to explain the reasons for the decision. Again, I hope that that will put the mind of the noble Baroness at rest that the power in Clause 36(3)(a) will be used proportionately.
	The amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, would prevent the coroner excluding specific people from an inquest where a young person was giving evidence and the coroner believed that the exclusion would improve the quality of the evidence. I accept, of course, that in most circumstances an inquest should be open to the public, but I can envisage situations when a young person might be traumatised by having to give evidence publicly at an inquest. This measure is about ensuring both the quality of evidence and protecting vulnerable young witnesses.
	It is intended that rules will be made under Clause 36(3)(b) requiring the senior coroner who is considering whether to issue such a direction to consider the views expressed by the witness, a parent of the witness and all the circumstances of the case. Provision will also be made in the rules made under the clause, so that a direction under this provision may not exclude the jury, if there is one, an interested person or a representative of an interested person.
	In addition, provision will be made so that any direction providing for a representative of the press to be excluded from an inquest must be expressed so as not to apply to one named person who is a representative of the press who has been nominated for the purpose by one or more news gathering or reporting organisations. Accordingly, the reports of the proceedings will be able to be published in the usual way, and interested parties will not be excluded. Provision is made in criminal legislation enabling the court to exclude persons from a hearing in which a person under 18 is giving evidence. We will write to the noble Lord to let him know the relevant legislation and how it fits.
	Our intentions coincide with the spirit of the remarks made by my noble friend Lady Dean. I request that she withdraws her amendment. If on reflecting upon my words she is not satisfied, I would be happy to meet her to go through how the various parts of the Bill will fit together. If the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is unconvinced by my answers, I would also be happy to meet him.

Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: The Minister is absolutely right. Our intentions appear to be the same: to protect the families and ensure they have the access that they are entitled to. I do not challenge the Government's good intentions in putting this provision in Clause 36. I heard the Minister and I thank him for the suggestion that we meet, because the wording as it stands does not meet the points that I have tried to make. I look forward to meeting him. In the mean time, with the leave of the House, I withdraw my amendment.
	Amendment 134A withdrawn.
	Amendments 135 and 136
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	135: Clause 36, page 21, line 13, leave out from "delegation" to first "of" in line 14 and insert "by—
	(i) a senior coroner, area coroner or assistant coroner, or
	(ii) the Coroner for Treasure (or an Assistant Coroner for Treasure),"
	136: Clause 36, page 21, line 19, leave out "a senior coroner" and insert "the Coroner for Treasure"
	Amendments 135 and 136 agreed.
	Amendment 136A not moved.
	Amendment 137
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	137: Clause 36, page 21, line 24, at end insert "or the Coroner for Treasure"
	Amendment 137 agreed.
	Amendments 137A and 137B not moved.
	Amendments 138 to 140
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	138: Clause 36, page 21, line 35, leave out subsection (4)
	139: Clause 36, page 21, line 38, leave out "to (4)" and insert "and (3)"
	140: Clause 36, page 21, line 40, at end insert—
	"( ) any provisions of Treasure regulations;"
	Amendments 138 to 140 agreed.
	Clause 36, as amended, agreed.
	Clause 37 agreed.
	Clause 38 : "Interested person"
	Amendment 140A not moved.
	Amendment 141
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	141: Clause 38, page 22, line 40, leave out paragraph (l)
	Amendment 141 agreed.
	Amendment 142
	 Moved by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
	142: Clause 38, page 23, line 4, at end insert—
	"( ) In circumstances where an interested person willing to represent the interests of the deceased does not exist, a coroner may recognise as an interested person an organisation or person who would be otherwise recognised as an interested party for the purposes of judicial review proceedings."

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: This is also a probing amendment. As I understand it, the clause expands slightly the list of interested persons as laid out in Rule 22 of the Coroners Rules 1984 and empowers the coroner to determine that any other person is an interested person.
	There have been a significant number of contentious deaths in detention where the deceased had no family, or no interested family, and as such their interests were underrepresented at the inquest. The experience in these cases is that there is a danger of the inquest becoming a mere rubber-stamping of the official version of events. In the absence of legal representation on behalf of the family, it is unusual for a coroner to ask the kind of searching questions that arise when there is representation. It is felt that some custodial deaths and other controversial deaths have not been as well scrutinised as they should have been because the family did not have the information or resources to be legally represented. When the deceased has no family interested in participating in an inquest it is tantamount to the deceased having no family at all. I would therefore appreciate the Minister's clarification of the clause.

Lord Alderdice: I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, for pressing this issue. It is not just a question of deaths in detention in prisons; there are also many circumstances where people are detained under mental health legislation. These people are often without family, or their family has let them be and wants nothing to do with them. They are precisely the kind of people who get in trouble with medication properly prescribed, or with drugs, alcohol or other things, and their management is a significant problem. One might find with people of this kind—and there is a substantial number of them—that the official version, as the noble Baroness has described it, is simply biased. It should be possible for the coroner to recognise other interested persons. So this is simply an opportunity for the Minister to say on record that when coroners are giving consideration to these matters, they should be prepared to consider including appropriate bodies—non-governmental organisations, charities and others—which have an interest in people who are otherwise neglected.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: I support this amendment because the points which my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, have just raised need to be answered by the Government. I think that all of us have met with situations where people have died without loved ones and with no one else to represent them. One thinks of the parallel of the amicus curiae who can intervene and represent people in court when someone, for instance, is in a persistent vegetative state or when their long-term care is being considered. I signed this amendment because I had read recently in the newspaper of a case where someone had been found dead in their council flat. They had been left there for literally weeks on end undiscovered and had no relatives or friends. That seems precisely the kind of case that the coroner ought to be probing to discover where the culpability lay for the neglect of someone who was literally allowed to die unbefriended and uncared for.
	Many of us in the Chamber represented constituencies when we were in another place and, sadly, one did occasionally find that there are people living in a state of almost toxic loneliness. I think that it will be the great curse of the 21st century. It is estimated that some 1 million elderly people do not see a friend, neighbour or relative during the course of an average week. I think that this is an issue that we will have to contend with in the future. It would be good if the national coroner had the right to admit an organisation, such as Help the Aged, or an interest group that has been campaigning in some respect about some of these questions, in order to appear on behalf of the person whose case is being considered.

Lord Bach: We have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that her Amendment 142 relates to Clause 38 and who may be considered an interested person in relation to a coroner's investigation. The amendment would add to the list of interested persons those organisations and persons who in the absence of any other interested persons, such as family members, would be recognised as having an interest in a case. We heard from her and from other noble Lords about cases that trouble them in this field.
	Our view is that it is not necessary to set out additional classes of person who might be interested for the purposes of a coroner's investigation, because we have included in Clause 38(2)(n) a discretion for the coroner to be able to designate a person as interested if they have sufficient interest in the matter. It is possible that a coroner may exercise his or her discretion in cases where, for whatever reason, there is no other friend or family member of the person who has died who has an interest in the investigation.
	The coroner will of course consider each case on its merits. If the coroner decides that the person or organisation does not have sufficient interest to be designated under Clause 38(2)(n), it will be open to the person or organisation to appeal the decision to the Chief Coroner. I venture to say that that is an important consideration in dealing with this amendment. It should ensure that only those persons with a proper interest in a coroner's investigation are so designated, with the appeal rights that flow from that. That is all I intend to say on this matter. I hope that it gives the noble Baroness some comfort.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I am most grateful to the Minister. I am particularly grateful to him for clarifying on the record that this will be a person or organisation, and that they will be able to appeal to the Chief Coroner if they are not happy with a decision. It is completely understandable that there must be discretion in who is named—otherwise you could have a vexatious coroners' court tour by a group that just wanted to agitate rather than being bona fide people interested and concerned about the circumstances of a death. Accepting the Minister's assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
	Amendment 142 withdrawn.
	Amendments 143 and 144
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	143: Clause 38, page 23, line 20, leave out "section 21" and insert "Chapter (Investigations concerning treasure)"
	144: Clause 38, page 23, line 31, leave out "senior coroner" and insert "Coroner for Treasure"
	Amendments 143 and 144 agreed.
	Clause 38, as amended, agreed.
	Clause 39 : Interpretation: general
	Amendments 145 and 146
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	145: Clause 39, page 23, line 44, at end insert—
	""Assistant Coroner for Treasure" means an assistant coroner, designated under paragraph 7 of Schedule (Coroner for Treasure and Assistant Coroners for Treasure), acting in the capacity of Assistant Coroner for Treasure;"
	146: Clause 39, page 24, line 9, at end insert—
	""the Coroner for Treasure" means a person appointed under paragraph 1 of Schedule (Coroner for Treasure and Assistant Coroners for Treasure);"
	Amendments 145 and 146 agreed.
	Amendments 146A to 146C not moved.
	Amendment 147
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	147: Clause 39, page 25, line 16, at end insert—
	""Treasure regulations" means regulations under section (Treasure regulations);"
	Amendment 147 agreed.
	Clause 39, as amended, agreed.
	Clause 40 : Amendments to the Coroners Act (Northern Ireland) 1959
	Amendment 148
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	148: Clause 40, page 25, line 40, leave out "and in section 11"
	Amendment 148 agreed.
	Clause 40, as amended, agreed.
	Schedule 9 : Amendments to the Coroners Act (Northern Ireland) 1959
	Amendment 149
	 Moved by Lord Bach
	149: Schedule 9, page 138, line 19, leave out paragraphs 3 to 5
	Amendment 149 agreed.
	Schedule 9, as amended, agreed.
	Clause 41 agreed.
	House resumed.

Schools
	 — 
	Statement

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I should like to repeat a Statement made in another place. The Statement is as follows.
	"Mr Speaker, over the past 12 years, school standards have risen significantly in our country, and our education system has changed beyond recognition. The number of secondary schools with at least 30 per cent of pupils failing to achieve five good GCSEs, including English and maths, has fallen from over half in 1997 to just one in seven today. We now have over 40,000 more teachers, backed up by over 200,000 more support staff. We now also have 200 national leaders of education, compared to none in 1997. Our best state schools now match the best schools in the private sector and anywhere in the world; and the reason is that we have rebuilt the school system on a foundation of sustained record investment matched by tough accountability. That is why we can now go further and transform our schools system to meet the challenges of the 21st century.
	Our country faces an economic imperative, because every young person now needs skills and qualifications to succeed; and a moral imperative, because every child and every young person has potential and can do well with the right help and support. It is to meet these twin imperatives that I am today publishing our 21stCentury Schools White Paper based on: new guarantees for pupils and parents; a significant devolution of power and responsibility to our school leaders, matched by strengthened school accountability; and an uncompromising approach to school improvement, because we want every child to succeed and we will never give up on any child.
	We will now legislate for our pupil guarantee to ensure that: all young people get a broad and balanced curriculum and high-quality qualifications, whether their strengths are practical, academic or both; every secondary pupil has a personal tutor; all pupils get five hours of PE and sport every week and access to cultural activities, too; gifted and talented pupils get written confirmation of the extra challenge and support they will receive; and all pupils with additional needs get extra help, with 4,000 extra dyslexia teachers, and all pupils in years 3 to 6 falling behind in English or maths get one-to-one tuition to help them get back on track. We will now extend the offer of one-to-one or small group tuition to all pupils at the start of secondary school who were behind at the end of primary school. And following the report of the expert group on assessment, we will now introduce a new progress check at the end of year 7 so that parents can be confident that their children have made up the lost ground.
	Our new parents guarantee will ensure regular online information about their child's progress, behaviour and attendance, access to their child's personal tutor, and fair school admissions in line with the admissions code. Parents' views will be listened to and reported on a school report card so that parents know what other parents think when choosing a school. Where parents are unhappy with the choice of schools on offer to them, based on an annual survey of parents, local authorities will have to listen and respond to their concerns. And because all parents want their children to learn at an orderly school where they are safe from bullying and lessons are not disrupted by bad behaviour, we will now legislate to strengthen home-school agreements so that all pupils and parents will accept the school's rules when they apply for a school place and be expected to sign up to renew their commitment every year. Schools will have stronger powers to enforce discipline through intensive support, parenting contracts and parenting orders, and parents will have the right to complain and expect action if schools fail to act to enforce the home-school agreement.
	Building on the success of the national strategies' literacy and numeracy hours—which will continue in all schools, with Ofsted continuing to inspect them as now—we will devolve power and funding to school leaders to decide, with ring-fenced funding, what support they need to further drive up standards. We will ensure that schools can get the support they need from other services through children's trust boards and encourage multi-agency teams based in schools. The new chair of our independent bureaucracy watchdog will review any unnecessary obstacles which get in the way of delivery. And building on the success of our National Leaders in Education and academies programmes, we will now act so that our best head teachers can run more than one school, with better pay for executive heads. We will accredit high performing schools, colleges and universities to run chains of schools in not-for-profit accredited schools groups, with the first providers up and running by January. Already nine schools, one multi-academy sponsor, four colleges and four universities, including Nottingham University, have come forward, and I am today setting aside funds over the next two years to support their growth.
	We will match this transformation in school leadership with a transformation in school accountability. School league tables are easy to read, but because they present a narrow view of performance based solely on the attainment of the average pupil, they cannot provide the full picture parents need. Our new school report card will include full information on school attainment, but go well beyond it. It will set out clearly for parents how the school is improving standards, how well it is helping those pupils who have fallen behind to catch up, and stretching the most able. It will report on discipline, attendance, sport, healthy eating and partnership working. And it will set out what parents and pupils think of the school.
	We will begin pilots of our new school report card this September. But while we will consult further, I am now convinced that if parents, newspapers and websites are to make fair, clear and easy-to-understand comparisons between schools, our school report card will need to include a single, overall grade.
	Because a world-class schools system needs a world-class workforce, we are making teaching a masters-level profession. We will now introduce a new 'licence to teach', similar to that used by other high-status professionals, such as doctors and lawyers. Teachers will need to keep their practice up-to-date to renew their license, and they will be given a new entitlement for continued professional development. We will start with newly qualified teachers, beginning their training this September; those returning to teaching, from September 2010; and all supply teachers shortly afterwards. We will make governing bodies slimmer and more highly skilled and will require all chairs to undergo specific training.
	The primary responsibility for school improvement lies with head teachers and governing bodies. But where progress is too slow and performance does not improve, local authorities have a responsibility to act. Since we set out our National Challenge and our Coasting Schools Challenge, local authorities have drawn up improvement plans and we have announced 55 new academies and 27 National Challenge trusts. Today I am giving the go-ahead to two new academies, in Halton and in Redcar and Cleveland, and confirming funding agreements for two further academies, in Nottingham and in Herefordshire, all replacing National Challenge schools.
	Some argue that where underperformance is entrenched, locally-led change is not working and excuses are being made, the right approach is to stand back, let schools wither and slowly decline, and to allow the children and young people in those schools to pay the price. I disagree. We have a responsibility in government to step in and demand improvement. I will not shirk that responsibility.
	Following Ofsted's December 2008 assessment of Milton Keynes, which found children's services to be inadequate, with serious weaknesses in secondary school attainment and improvement, we commissioned an independent performance review. Despite some progress, the review concluded that urgent improvement is still required. The Children's Minister has today written to the council directing it under Section 497A of the Education Act 1996 immediately to appoint Mr Peter Kemp to chair an independent improvement board that will report directly to Ministers, and to submit and agree an improvement plan.
	The Schools Minister and I are concerned about the rate of progress in Leicester, where we issued an improvement notice last June. So today I am asking Sir Mike Tomlinson, chair of our National Challenge expert advisers, to provide us with a progress report in September. And, on the basis of his report and this summer's results, we will consider whether further action is needed.
	I am also asking our expert advisers to work with Blackpool and Gloucestershire—areas that need to make more progress—to identify what more needs to be done to deliver National Challenge and report back to me on progress in September.
	If this year's exam results reveal serious weaknesses in these areas, or any area in the country, I will do whatever it takes to secure the progress of children and young people.
	In this White Paper, we match continued investment with reform and higher expectations so that we meet the economic imperative by ensuring every young person gets the qualifications they need; and we meet our moral imperative by ensuring that every child can succeed, whatever barriers they face. And I commend this Statement to the House".
	My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

Baroness Verma: My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. However, it was a Statement, as one expected, of old, rehashed ideas and the Government's admittance that they have failed to get to grips with some of the serious concerns that are giving parents and teachers alike great anxiety. With this White Paper, the Government had a great opportunity to transform our approach to the education of children in this country. What the Secretary of State has in fact shown is a failure to address why so many of our young children are not reaching minimum requirements in reading, writing and numeracy from primary school age straight through to secondary education.
	We have seen a frightening rise in the numbers of young people not in employment, education or training. We have seen a rise in truancy and in the numbers of children repeatedly suspended from schools. The Government seem to have tacitly accepted this by ditching their national strategy for numeracy and literacy after years of lauding its success.
	Many of today's parents are the product of a childhood under a Government who have taken more and more responsibility away from them and handed it to the state, while failing to make available effective educational provision. The Government cannot release themselves from being the architect of the failure of so many children to thrive and reach their full potential at school.
	This programme proposes to strengthen the responsibilities of parents to their children's behaviour. If parents fail to comply, they will be prosecuted and fined up to £1,000. We all agree that parents have a key role to play in the support they give their children and schools in tackling poor behaviour, but surely we need to see what can be done to help parents carry out those expectations rather than criminalise them. We know that often the most disruptive children come from disruptive backgrounds. Do the Government really think that criminalisation of inadequate parenting skills is the way forward?
	The Minister said that all primary school children will have an entitlement to one-to-one tuition and all children in secondary school will have an entitlement to personal tutors. How will this be funded? Where will all these tutors come from? Will they have appropriate training? When will they come into action? Furthermore, it is proposed to have an extra 4,000 teachers for dyslexic children. Where will they come from? What qualifications will they require? Will the process involve special educational needs assessments? How does the Minister propose to fund the proposal set out in the pupil-parent guarantees, as there seem to be huge financial implications? I am sure that the Minister will quote the Secretary of State's view that £400 million has been freed up due to the let-up of the recession. Can she explain exactly what this means and where this money will come from?
	The abolition of school league tables in favour of an ill defined and uninformative report card system will surely have one big loser—the parent. At a time when we need parents to have access to far more detailed information about the schools they are sending their children to, it would be a travesty to offer only a one-page report card that includes, laughably, a rating on how the school teaches children to control their feelings. Can the Minister offer any reassurance to our concerns that with such a paltry selection of very general information—consisting apparently of, among other things, ratings on truancy levels, sporting prowess and attendance at lunch—there seems to be little encouragement for schools to lift their academic standards. Surely just rating schools A to F will leave parents unsure about schools' exact academic achievements.
	The Conservative Party has consistently argued for the strengthening of league tables, a process which would require a great deal more data to be made accessible to parents. As it is, this seems like another of those lost opportunities that we have become used to under this Government.
	A second and more serious point that I hope the Minister can clarify is what the actual function of the grades will be. If they are for parent information, they are remarkably uninformative. If, like under the New York system, they are to be used to justify sanctions and benefits for bad and good schools, it is important for the Minister to inform the House of what these might look like. It would be useful to know whether the system will be a means for state control of school behaviour or of giving information to parents.
	It would seem that the Government have not grown tired of watering down and rehashing the ideas of the Opposition. School chains are part of what Ed Balls calls an,
	"uncompromising approach to school improvement".
	Apparently they will engineer a situation whereby high-performing schools and education providers will take over less successful neighbours to create chains of successful schools.
	Surely this is nothing more than a watered down version of Conservative Party policy for opening the market to new providers. The Secretary of State called this White Paper radical during an interview on Radio 4. Will the Minister explain what is radical about taking a policy that the Opposition have developed, removing all its innovative aspects and then passing it off as new and revolutionary?
	The Minister will say that raising to £200,000 the salaries of head teachers who take on these chains of schools will be an incentive. However, it seems unlikely that it will provide the answer to the problem of the energy that head teachers put into running successful schools being taken away by working with poorly performing schools without the necessary support mechanisms. Will the Minister assure us that these super heads will have available the support mechanisms to ensure not only that their successful school will be managed properly but also that the new schools that they take on will be properly facilitated.
	This is a missed opportunity from a Government who have run out of steam. The proposals bring nothing but more bureaucracy, tinkering and meddling. The Government's own report card would state "grade F". I look forward to the Minister's response.

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I congratulate the Government on the investments that they have made in the schools system, which has led to some improvement. However, unlike the Minister, I would claim that we have always had state schools which have been as good as the best in the private sector. I have always been something of an apologist for state schools and we have many to be proud of.
	While the Government have put much needed resources into the schools system, there remains their gross failure during their 10 years to reform the secondary school curriculum. One reason why around 50 per cent of young people do not gain grades A to C is partly that most of them are totally unmotivated by the curriculum that they are offered. The Government's failure to pick up and implement the Tomlinson report in 2004 means that they are left with a continuing process of relative failure in secondary schools.
	The Statement echoes elements of the White Paper, Your Child, Your Schools, Our Future: Building a 21st Century Schools System. As with so many of the White Papers that we see these days, it is a re-announcement of a lot of initiatives which have existed previously. Among them are a number of initiatives that we would applaud. The one aspect of it that seems so unreal in the present circumstances is where the money will come from. In spite of Speaker Bercow's announcement last week that new ideas were to be announced first in Parliament, we had a good preview of this White Paper on this morning's "Today" programme. The Secretary of State indicated that he had found £400 million in his budget to fund these initiatives for 2009-10 and 2010-11. This may be so, but where is the money coming from in future? We know that many cutbacks are still to be made.
	Among those elements of the White Paper that we on these Benches would applaud is one-to-one tuition for years three to six and, if the young people still need it, in the early years of secondary school. We have long argued that more money should be spent on those pupils who come from a disadvantaged background than on other pupils—we call it our pupil premium. We are glad that the Government have at long last accepted that this is so. Again, it is an initiative which, had they only put it into practice 10 years ago, might have led to very different results from our primary schools and fewer young people in the category of not in employment, education or training.
	We also support to a certain extent the New York-style report cards on schools. There is no doubt that league tables are a crude way of measuring a school's performance, particularly those that are based largely on the crude examination score. Attempts to create value added measures of school performance have not been very successful.
	As the Government are considering a broader report card to measure schools, why when they look at local authorities are they going back to the league-table mentality and crude exam results? The White Paper refers to authorities that have been in difficulties and says,
	"if this year's exam results reveal serious weaknesses in these areas, or any area of the country, I will do whatever it takes to secure the progress of children and young people".
	Again, it is back to using exam results to measure performance.
	One of our reservations about the Government's proposals is that, like the Opposition, we do not fully understand what the guarantee means. Does criminality for parents mean that parents will be fined? Does it mean a criminal offence? ASBOs have proved to be unsatisfactory. I do not think ASBOs for parents will prove to be any better. Who is sued if the guarantee is not met? Is it the governors who are sued? Is it the local education authority or is it the Department for Children, Schools and Families who will be sued if the guarantee is not met? If it is the governors, the Government will find it increasingly difficult to find people to volunteer to be governors. The responsibility you take on as a governor is already formidable and if you are likely to be sued if the school does not deliver it could be even more so.
	On federations, on these Benches we have long argued that the right way to approach education is co-operation not competition. As the Minister knows, we had a lot of reservations about the schools policy which set one school against another and we continue to have those reservations about the academies programme because it puts them outside the community. In our view, schools are there to serve a community and need to co-operate with one another. We like the idea of a federation but we have grave reservations about sharing heads. As everyone knows, a good school is where you have a good head and a good leadership team and it is not easy to share those with other schools. If a head's attention is divided between two schools, it does not always work.
	Neither do we want to see shared boards of governors. There was a time when many schools were run with shared boards of governors or schools managers, as they were then called. The concept of a board of governors is to be a link between the community and the school. It is not a good idea to have shared boards of governors between a lot of schools. Federations in terms of co-operation between schools—yes; federations in terms of having lots of schools with one head or one leadership team or one board of governors—no, that is not what we want to see.
	We do not understand why the Government are proposing to slim down boards of governors. They have slimmed them down a lot and boards of governors work quite effectively now. There does not seem to me to be any room for slimming them down more. Given the responsibilities they are putting on boards of governors—the fact that you have to have a governor who represents special educational needs, a governor for children in care, a governor for health and safety—it is difficult to see why you would want fewer governors. Governors are an important link between the community and the school.
	Can the Minister tell us more about the Government's proposals for teachers, including the requirement for a Master's qualification and licence to practise? Are they proposing that no one can teach until they have a Master's degree? If they want teachers to have a Master's degree, I would hope it would become part of the CPD training and that teachers would not only get time off in order to acquire these extra qualifications but could do so in bite-size chunks. In that way they could gradually build up those qualifications and be recompensed for having done so and for having given up their own time for doing it.

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses for their questions and comments. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, I recommend that she takes time to look at the White Paper, because I think that she will find that, rather than being a recycling of Conservative Party proposals, it is a recognition that, since 1997, following the significant investment in school infrastructure, teaching and support staff and every aspect of education delivery, we are now at the stage where the system is maturing and we can increase the level of trust and confidence that we have in our schools. Rather than, as the noble Baroness suggests, increasing bureaucracy, we are aiming not to abolish the national challenge but to allow schools, by devolving resources to them, to procure improvement resources themselves. We are building on the success of initiatives such as the national challenge.
	When the noble Baroness talks about the report card, she should note that parents are looking for a much richer and broader set of data on schools, including more information on discipline and how bullying is managed. Yes, academic qualifications are extremely important to parents, but it is also important for parents to know how well school well-being and discipline is being delivered. She asked about superheads, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. It is absolutely vital that we make the most of the incredible leadership skills and the management and educational expertise of some of the wonderful heads that we have in this country. By allowing them to broaden their impact and work with other schools, we are making the most of them. Of course, it is absolutely vital that they have the right support to do that.
	The noble Baroness asked about the report card. It is extremely important that the pilot that we are beginning drills down into what is effective for parents and communities. We shall work hard to interpret the outcomes of these pilots to ensure that the new report card captures all the information presently available through the system and adds the kind of richness that we know that parents look for.
	The noble Baroness asked about the percentage of young people who are NEET. It is extremely disappointing that in 1997 we had 76.8 per cent of young people NEET and that we now have 79.7 per cent of them who are NEET. However, you have to look at that in the context of our strategy for raising participation. We know that through hard work and investment we will be able to encourage young people to become further involved in education and training.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, asked about one-to-one tuition and funding for tutors. Of course, the money for one-to-one tuition is part of our spending review settlement and has already been announced; so the money is there. All the tutors that we are talking about recruiting—and this is an area that is very important to parents—will be qualified teachers. The noble Baroness generously welcomed much in the White Paper and I encourage her to look at it further. She talked about the importance of co-operation between schools; there is a great deal in the White Paper about the value of schools working in partnership, which is very much at the heart of what we trying to achieve. We have a system in which it is time to recognise the economic challenges; we do not want to leave a single child to fall through the net, but we know that schools cannot do it on their own, and it is vital that they work together. Therefore, we have created this duty on schools, and it is important that we build on that.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, asked about the guarantee and the legal recourse. Surely, the first step would be for a parent to talk to the head teacher at school, and then, if the parent is not satisfied, to make a complaint to the local government ombudsman. As a last resort, there is always judicial review—but that is very much an end process. We want to avoid that through much more meaningful relationship between parents and schools.
	Time presses, but I would encourage noble Lords to look at the detail of the White Paper. There is much in there that Members of this House will find interesting and encouraging.

The Lord Bishop of Liverpool: My Lords, I declare an interest in that I serve as chair of two city academies. I welcome very much the Statement read by the noble Baroness. I should like to press the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, about governing bodies. My own experience is that it is very difficult to recruit governors, especially from the community. With her express proposal to slim down these governing bodies, how does the Minister propose that we recruit the governors that are needed for the curriculum sub-committee, the discipline sub-committee, the appeals sub-committee, the Every Child Matters sub-committee and the remuneration sub-committee? These committees require a lot of work. One of the things that the Government should be addressing is the creation of incentives to encourage people from the community to come forward for what is an ever more onerous responsibility serving as a member of a governing body.

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I agree with the right reverend Prelate that the role of school governor is extremely important. I appreciate that the volume of work involved can be very great. What is really important about a governing body is that it has the right skills in order to do the right job. Of course we will make sure that we have the adequate number to do the work. However, I know from my own experience that when you have working groups it is sometimes extremely helpful to bring in expertise from other community groups. You do not necessarily have to be a governor to be involved in supporting a school in your community. I hear what the right reverend Prelate says; we need to ensure that the size is right and that governing bodies can function appropriately.

Baroness Perry of Southwark: My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement, which is a splendid statement of aspirations for our schools that many of us from all parties in the House will thoroughly share.
	As the chairman of my party's policy group on the improvement of public services, I am pleased to see that some of the things that we recommended in our published report have been reflected in the Statement today. Most particularly, I welcome the thrust to decentralise the control over education and to give more control to the professionals in the system, to teachers and to schools. We and the Liberal Democrats have shared that aspiration for some considerable time.
	I have two questions to ask the Minister. First, I ask about the one-to-one teaching. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, asked where the money and the people were coming from. I think that the Minister replied about the money but not about the people. If these are all to be qualified teachers, where will the necessary supply of people, who are expert enough to work with children who are failing in the way she has described, come from? There are many classes and many schools where it is not the odd one child who needs special help, but where 20 children in a class need one-to-one special help. I wonder where this recruitment for so many people will come from.
	My second question is much broader. Where will the thrust for independence for schools be reflected, particularly in relation to this mistaken policy of giving every school a grade? The idea of the report card is sound, because, as the Minister has rightly said, parents want a wide range of information about schools. They want to know whether a school is right for their child; is it the right sort of feel, does it have the right sort of atmosphere and values? That is certainly important, but to give a school a grade seems such a retrograde step. Parents will not want to send their child to "D" school. It will simply increase the competition for the "A" schools, and make it harder and harder for schools struggling on examinations. Can the Minister explain where the grading will come from, and what sort of factors will be taken into account?

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, first, the recruitment for the one-to-one tutors has already begun. As I understand it, interest is encouraging. I agree with the noble Baroness that it is extremely important that we get the right people. Many children will benefit from this. We know from evidence that even short courses of one-to-one tuition can help children catch up very quickly, which we are keen to enact as quickly as possible. Many teachers would find this attractive. I am encouraged by the initial feedback.
	The report card is not a simple matter. In my opinion, as parents we want to see that rich, broad information. For schools, however, it is not always helpful. If that information is put in the public domain, somebody will always put it into a league table for you. There is merit in having a clearly evidenced procedure or process that has come out of real piloting in real schools, which will allow the process of creating a grade to be fair, transparent and widely tested.
	The noble Baroness is right in that no parent wants their child to go to a D-grade school, but we want every school to be an A-grade school. We must have a fair and open process that can allow us to achieve that. We do not want a single child to be left behind.

Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I admit that I listened with some disappointment to the claim that in this White Paper,
	"we meet the economic imperative by ensuring every young person gets the qualifications they need".
	In all of the Statement before that, there was no mention of one of the basic needs that continues to be denied to all our children. Why do we continue to perpetuate the scheme whereby children are automatically moved on once they get into primary school before they can read? Why not make certain that they can read before they move out of the entry level? If they cannot, they cannot keep up with what happens afterwards. Then you get all the problems of being unable to keep up: they are bored, they leave and they truant. Time after time you hear reports of teachers, observers and everyone recommending this. We have Statement after Statement, but still that basic requirement seems to be denied. Can the Minister explain why?

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, our aspiration, clearly articulated in the Statement, is to ensure that all children can achieve their potential. Of course, that means ensuring that they can read before they leave primary school. It is intolerable for us if only one child moves on to secondary school without functional skills. That is why we have invested not only in ensuring that we drive up standards for all schools and making sure that we are initiating the catch-up one-to-one tuition at the beginning of secondary school, where children have fallen below level 4. As the noble Lord is aware, we have also invested in training in functional skills for adults. We are not just tackling children who need to have those basic literacy skills but also adults.

Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, I thank the Minister for the Statement and share the aspirations in the White Paper. I echo the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, about school league tables focusing on a single grade. Some of our most praiseworthy schools operate in areas where the catchments are disadvantaged. However hard the schools work, their children will never pass exams, which is the main criterion for achieving in these schools. That would be a major concern both on our Benches and on the Conservative Benches. Has an estimate been made of the amount of additional bureaucracy that those measures will impose both on schools and on individual teachers, who will have to carry out a great deal more form-filling, writing and reporting rather than being in front of young people and teaching them?

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, the noble Baroness makes an important point about the report cards. This is something that the pilots will be looking at. It is essential that the report card, which has that rich, fuller set of information about a school, takes into account the community and the circumstances in which a school is functioning. That means fully representing the value-added—an awful phrase—that a school provides. It is precisely because the oversimplistic focus on exam results does not satisfy what parents are looking for that we are reaching for something that has much more to say about the broad work that schools do promoting well being for young people, ensuring a calm and orderly environment, that bullying is tackled and that children have the opportunity to benefit from good quality teaching by the provision of a sound learning environment. There is no benefit for anyone if our commitment to devolving more to schools results in schools taking on more bureaucracy. That is not what our Secretary of State is trying to achieve. He is firm on that matter.

Coroners and Justice Bill
	 — 
	Committee (4th Day) (Continued)

Amendment 150
	 Moved by Lord Carlile of Berriew
	150: Before Clause 42, insert the following new Clause—
	"Reform of the law of murder
	Reform of the law of murder
	(1) A defendant ("D") who kills or is party to the killing of another is to be regarded as guilty of murder where D intended to cause serious injury to another person or persons and was aware that there was a serious risk that another person might die as a result of D's conduct.
	(2) A defendant ("D") who kills or is party to the killing of another is to be regarded as not guilty of murder, but liable instead to be convicted of manslaughter, if D was unaware that his conduct involved a serious risk that another person might die as a result of that conduct."

Lord Carlile of Berriew: The amendment stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford. I hope that the Committee will grant me the indulgence of allowing me to be his, albeit inadequate, substitute. Rumour has it that my noble friend is in South Africa trying to persuade lions to roar three or four points louder than in the past couple of weeks. When I was a foal in a barrister's stable in which my senior colleagues were, as they now are, my noble friends Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Hooson, I was taught that if someone else gives one a good point on a plate, one should move fast and make it one's own. That is what I seek to do in moving this probing amendment.
	The background to the amendment lies in the successive pusillanimity of Governments of every possible persuasion. I hearken back to the old Criminal Law Revision Committee, which I suspect was possibly in place before anyone in this House was practising at the Bar. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, has just made a signal confession, so he will remember it well—I tempted him. For a couple of generations and more, Governments have not had the courage to remove the mandatory life sentence. We are now going to embark on a series of debates on Part 2 of the Bill concerning complications of the law designed to avoid removing the mandatory life sentence, but these are an obstacle course set up against the merits of something that could be much simpler. I say to the Government at the outset that it is high time that we no longer had the mandatory life sentence and that we had something along the lines of this probing amendment—I had hoped that we would receive it from the Government who, to their credit, introduced the Human Rights Act—which is founded on the Law Commission's report entitled Murder, Manslaughter and Infanticide of 28 November 2006.
	I fear that the failure to remove the life sentence is either a lesson learnt from, or possibly a denial of, the old Burkean adage that a parliamentarian should be a pillar of what is right and not merely a weathercock of public opinion, although I am unsure as to what public opinion really now is on the mandatory life sentence. I think that if we were to ask the public a series of intelligent and intelligible questions about the mandatory life sentence, we might find that they took a different view from some of the popular papers. My real fear is that the Government may have gone below the superficiality which is usually exercised by Governments and discovered what happened to Burke when he said that in a celebrated by-election in the West Country, which history reveals he unfortunately lost.
	This probing amendment provides that a person shall be guilty of murder if they intended to cause serious injury to another person and were aware that their actions could result in the death of another person. Proposed new subsection (2) provides that a person shall be convicted of manslaughter if he was unaware that there was a serious risk that his actions could result in the death of another person. This is very close to the Law Commission's recommendation in 2006. It recommended the adoption of a three-tier structure of general homicide offences to replace the current two-tier structure of murder and manslaughter.
	There was considerable debate on the consultation paper issued by the Law Commission prior to its full recommendations, and there was a great deal of support for its proposal from, for example, the resident judges of the Central Criminal Court. It is worth emphasising that the daily, although not exclusive, diet of Central Criminal Court judges, High Court judges and senior circuit judges—every man and woman among them—is murder cases. They try more murder cases than possibly all the other courts in the country added together. The proposal also had the support of the criminal sub-committee of the Council of Her Majesty's Circuit Judges, importantly Victims' Voice, JUSTICE, the Crown Prosecution Service, which saw the proposal as entirely practicable, the Criminal Bar Association, the Law Society and even those radicals, the criminal law teachers at the LSE.
	There were groups opposed to the provisional proposal—among them, the Higher Court Judges' Homicide Working Party, which thought that the restriction in the consultation paper of the Law Commission made the definition of first degree murder too narrow, and that objection is reflected in the amendment. The Higher Court Judges' Homicide Working Party thought that first degree murder should be extended beyond cases of intentional killing to cover homicides in which the offender acted on an intention to do serious injury and was recklessly indifferent as to causing death. It was the virtually unanimous view that people should not be convicted of murder, at least without a distinction between first and second degree, if they either did not intend to cause serious injury or were not recklessly indifferent as to causing death.
	The present law causes real difficulties. Judges are faced with verdicts of juries which have said "guilty" to murder, leaving the judge to decide whether there was an intention to kill or an intention to cause grievous bodily harm. The proposals in the amendment would enable a jury to make the choice by grading the offence at the appropriate level. Judges now have immense experience of sentencing in homicide cases. In reality, we have a rather artificial sentencing position now. Judges do not like telling lies forced on them by statute. We now have a situation in which a judge is forced to pass a life sentence because it is mandatory. Having passed the life sentence, the judge then indulges in a completely different exercise in which he or she in effect says, "This is not really a life sentence. I am now going to impose a tariff". The amendment would bring the law into a consistent position with practice and would also bring the public, in the form of juries, into the decision-making process by which the jury would qualify the act complained of and committed by the defendant.
	It is therefore my suggestion that this kind of improvement of the law would make a significant step forward. It would mean that those who watch homicide trials—particularly the media, since they are inclined to be so critical of what happens in court—would see that homicide cases were being dealt with in a realistic, common-sense and logical way. There would no longer be a large gap in the degree of culpability involved, as between the alternative fault elements in the current offence of murder. I was also taught in that stable that one of the virtues of cogency is brevity; so I beg to move.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: I will address Amendment 150, which has been taken over by the noble Lord. I was, indeed, a member of the Law Revision Committee all those years ago under the chairmanship of a judge of the Court of Appeal, whose name I cannot now remember, unfortunately. I briefly served as chairman of the Law Revision Committee, but as soon as I became chairman, the committee never sat again.
	The noble Lord has done a good service by moving this amendment, because it shows how strange it is that we should be considering the partial defences to a charge of murder before we have determined what murder is or should be. It is all the stranger since the Government consulted the Law Commission as long ago as 2002 on the question of partial defences, received a report in 2004, and have done nothing about it since, until today. Why now?
	In his letter of 18 May, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, was kind enough to say that there were a number of stakeholders, among whom I would include myself, although I can never quite imagine myself as a stakeholder. I am not sure what my stake would look like. He concedes that there are a number who would prefer the Government to look at the current Law Commission proposals as a whole, and not in parts. I say amen to that. The Minister said that a number of other stakeholders took a different view. I cannot help wondering who those other stakeholders are and, more importantly, what their reasons are. Perhaps we might be told.
	Perhaps we can also be told the real reasons why the Government have still done nothing about the first 64 pages of the current Law Commission report, published in 2006, which set out its proposals for the new structure. It is the structure that we should be talking about today, not the partial defences. The Government have done nothing about the structure in the past two and a half years. Is the real reason simply that they cannot make up their minds? They say that they want to proceed step by step. That is all very well, provided that you take the steps in the right order. Here, they are taking step 2 before step 1, which usually ends in disaster.
	Having said that, I shall now turn to the amendment. I was not sure whether the noble Lord was confining himself to the terms of this amendment, or anticipating the terms of mine. I admire the drafter of the amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, for his courage in defining the law of murder in two short paragraphs. However, I cannot support his amendment, for the following reasons. Subsection (1) of the proposed new clause corresponds to the Law Commission's definition of first degree murder, except that it leaves out the defendant who intends to kill. Intentional killers are surely the most serious of all. They should be expressly included in any definition, and certainly not left to be inferred. Subsection (2) is also unsatisfactory as it would exclude from murder the most common case in practice—the defendant who intends to cause serious injury or harm, but who is unaware that he might be likely to cause death. It would also exclude the defendant who intends to cause some harm but not serious harm, but who is aware that his act might cause death.
	They should be included in any definition of murder, as recommended by the Law Commission. They are too serious to be treated as manslaughter. At any rate, they should not be excluded from murder, as the amendment proposes, without very prolonged consideration which we cannot give it now. With great respect, I hope that the noble Lord will not press his noble friend's amendment.

Lord Kingsland: I share the views expressed by the noble and learned Lord about the legislative exercise in which the Government are currently engaged. We are, in effect, being asked to consider the partial defences in a vacuum. Until we know what they will be measured against—what the Government will say about the component parts of the crime of murder—we are not in a position to reach any conclusions about the merits of the measures that are contained in the Bill.
	On the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, so ably presented this afternoon by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, I respectfully share the concerns expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, on the absence of intention to kill in the definition of the offence. Without that, the amendment is plainly incomplete. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, will consider the matter between now and Report.

Baroness Murphy: I admit to having had an interest in the law on homicide ever since serving as a psychiatrist on Lord Lane's committee back in 1993 to consider the penalty for homicide. That report, like many others, recommended the abolition of the mandatory life sentence. It was binned immediately by the then Home Secretary, Michael Howard.
	As the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, said, the law is in urgent need of reform, if only to prevent what I as a psychiatrist might call the unseemly Lobster Quadrille danced in the courts by expert forensic psychiatrists who are obliged to consider these various partial defences and the way they are involved in the verdict, in order to prevent the mandatory life sentence being implemented.
	I was a perennial optimist and had hoped that the Government would have the courage to make progress. I regret very much that the Executive appear so set against what would be by far the most sensible and important reform—the abolition of the mandatory life sentence. That militates against achieving "individualised justice", both generally and specifically in relation to mental health and many other factors relevant to proper sentencing. It is sad that the Government have failed to accept the Law Commission's recommendations this time round. Those do not go as far as we would like, but a variant would at least devolve from the Executive to the judiciary sentencing powers for a large percentage of cases. That of course is the sticking point: the power that the mandatory sentence gives to the Executive. It seems that that is just too much to be readily given up.
	As I am not a lawyer, perhaps I may be permitted to offer some praise for the judiciary in the matter of appropriate sentencing. We have a system of checks and balances on sentencing that I do not believe require this executive control. We also have an excellent parole board system that enables the date of release to be reviewed at an appropriate time. After all, people are going to be released. I find it extraordinary that the Secretary of State would wish to retain the decision-making powers in this matter when a whole panoply of executive systems is available to enable the decision to be made by proper experts without political interference. The amendment is an attempt to move away from that in a way that—thinking of debates that the House has had in previous years—many of us would feel sympathetic towards.
	I do not want to comment on the specific wording of the amendment, because this may not be the right one. I listened carefully to what was said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, and the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. The wording of this amendment may not achieve what we want to achieve. Nevertheless, a review of the law on homicide is sadly missing from this Bill. We will be spending the rest of this evening debating matters that would be far better addressed at sentencing rather than at the point of verdict. It is a terrible shame that we have got to this point and not been able to address this major issue.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I commend the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, for standing in so manfully in the place of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. I, too, agree with the analysis of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, about the flaws in the amendment itself. However, I take it very much as it was put by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile—that it is a probing amendment to enable us to have this debate. It was not suggested that these amendments are necessarily correct in form, so I make no point about that at all.
	We would argue very strongly that we should not make the best the enemy of the good. In responding to Amendment 150, I must acknowledge that there are those who would have wished—I count among them each participant in this debate—that we had dealt with the whole area of murder law comprehensively and at once. We made clear at the outset that the provisions of the Bill are the first part of a staged approach. We will be looking at the Law Commission's other recommendations, especially those on a new structure of homicide comprising new offences of first degree murder, second degree murder and manslaughter, in the light of the effect of the changes to the partial defences proposed in Clauses 42 to 46.
	The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, said that we should have dealt with the structure first and the partial defences second, but noble Lords who have spoken know as well as I that these provisions have caused real interest and contention over a number of years. Many jurists have scratched their heads, debated, disagreed and made contributions, and it was clear that there was no unanimity of view about whether those proposals were definitively the best that could be devised. The issue is therefore whether we should do nothing or whether we should try to grapple with those things where there seemed to be some consensus and where there is an opportunity to do a bit of good and to take a step or two further along this road. The Government decided that we should try to deal with some of the issues that have caused difficulty.

Lord Clinton-Davis: When does my noble and learned friend envisage that she will come forward with an appropriate solution to this problem?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: We have to acknowledge that there is only so much time left in the current Parliament. I put it baldly: is there time for this Bill and for a Bill to deal with homicide? Everyone in this Committee who has grappled with this issue would acknowledge that dealing with homicide as a whole would take some considerable time and a great deal of care because we would have to get it absolutely right. Therefore, there is a question about how much can be undertaken. I cannot give the noble Lord the precise timing because I am in the happy position of not being one of the usual channels, not setting the parliamentary timetable and not being able to say when that should happen. However, it has been clear from the energy and commitment that has been shown not only by the Law Commission but by many others whom we have consulted that this issue has remained firmly on our agenda. It has never been taken off the boil or neglected. We have continued to discuss it, debate it, hone it and define it to try to make things better. I agree with those who say that the present law presents real difficulties and that we need to look at those things that we can change. That is what we are seeking to do in moving the agenda forward in relation to the partial defences.
	I have to say to noble Lords that there was a great deal of support for changing the way in which we deal with partial defences. There was therefore a realistic assessment that we could do some good work in that area, and perhaps only in that area, in trying to make a difference. That is what we now propose to do. It is critical that we get this area of law right. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, referred to what the weathercock of public opinion would say in relation to mandatory life sentences. I know that some people may not wish to take this on board. However, I have had the great privilege of speaking to many victims who have suffered a loss in their families as a result of murder and manslaughter. I must tell noble Lords that it is a matter of great importance to them that there is a mandatory life sentence. It is something that we must grapple with, because it is their reality that they live with every day. That is something that we must face when we speak to them about why the person who is responsible for killing the person they loved will not get a whole-life tariff and will not stay in prison for the whole of their life, but will be allowed to go free. The weathercock of public opinion is very interesting.

Baroness Knight of Collingtree: Does the noble and learned Baroness recall the time when Parliament abolished the death penalty? One of the strongest points made when that law was passed was that Parliament did not mean by its action that it was taking murder as a light matter. It was suggested very strongly that the present system would be in place to make absolutely sure that those who murdered faced a punishment.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: The noble Baroness is absolutely right. That is why I say that this is delicate and difficult. It is not easy to address it, because we want to keep confidence, but also to do what is proportionate and right for the victim while accepting the varying positions of those who offend. It is not easy.
	I absolutely understand what everyone has said about a comprehensive law, and that it is better to do it all together and have a structure. However, I invite the Committee to accept that this is a pragmatic, appropriate step forward in the right direction and ask the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, to withdraw the amendment. I understand why it was tabled and why it was important at the start of the debate for us to have an opportunity to explore the issues.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I am very grateful to all those who have taken part in this interesting debate, and particularly to the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General for her very considered response. With regard to the criticism of the text of the amendment—I emphasised that it was a probing amendment—I feel like an actor performing a play. If it goes well, you take the credit, and if it goes badly, you blame the author—which I shall do with enthusiasm on this occasion.
	Having heard the contribution of the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General, I must say, with great respect, that I do not understand the staging of the approach that is being taken. If you are going to take a carefully considered staging approach, you start with the offence and define it. Having defined it, you decide how you are going to deal with it. The careful definition of the offence deals with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Knight—who knows that I respect very much her contributions both in this House and formerly in another place—by emphasising that an offence of murder really is an offence of murder, and that a life sentence, when a judge says, "You will go to prison for life", will mean that you will go to prison for life for committing one of the most serious offences.
	How long will we have to wait for all the stages of this approach? I recall—other noble Lords will, too—that in another place, something like 20 years ago, the then home affairs spokesman of the Labour Party in opposition, no less a person than Tony Blair, advocated very strongly the abolition of the mandatory life sentence. But today the noble and learned Baroness is giving us an assurance—a very welcome and genuine assurance—that we are still somewhere along a very long obstacle course with no indication when we shall reach the end and be able to consider the whole of this issue fully.
	I do not believe that I have heard in this debate any empirical justification for why we do not start with a process that is staged in the way that we have described. I have heard no empirical justification for avoiding clarity of definition of the offence of murder. I have heard no empirical justification for why we do not abolish the mandatory life sentence. However, with the intent to return to the issue in due course, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
	Amendment 150 withdrawn.
	Amendment 150A
	 Moved by Lord Lloyd of Berwick
	150A: Before Clause 42, insert the following new Clause—
	"Murder: extenuating circumstances
	(1) In a trial for murder the trial judge may in the course of his summing up direct the jury that if they are satisfied that the defendant is guilty of murder, but are of the opinion that there were extenuating circumstances, they may on returning their verdict add a rider to that effect.
	(2) The judge may not give such a direction unless there is evidence on which a reasonable jury might so find.
	(3) Where the jury has so found, the judge shall not be obliged to pass a sentence of life imprisonment but may pass such other sentence as he considers appropriate having regard to any extenuating circumstances found by the jury.
	(4) If it appears to the Attorney General that the sentence so passed is unduly lenient he may refer it to the Court of Appeal under section 36 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (c. 33) (reviews of sentencing)."

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: Perhaps I should make it clear that unlike the previous amendment, this is not just probing in nature. It seeks to enable a jury to bring in a verdict of murder with the rider that in the jury's view, there were extenuating circumstances. The effect of that rider would mean that the judge would not be obliged to pass a sentence of life imprisonment, but could pass such other sentence as would be appropriate in the circumstances found by the jury. Perhaps I may start by listing some of the advantages that would flow if the amendment were to find favour with the Committee. I shall then mention the safeguards that have been built into the amendment, and finally, give the reasons for believing that the amendment would work in practice.
	What are the advantages? I shall limit myself to mentioning only four, but I suspect that there are many others; indeed I know that there are others. In the first place and most obviously, it would provide an answer to the case of the mercy killing. The evidence shows very little support among members of the public for imposing a life sentence of imprisonment in the case of the genuine mercy killing. That evidence is set out in the Law Commission report at paragraph 7.47 and is confirmed by the Nathan committee, which reported in 1988. Indeed, many Members of this House served on that committee. The committee members had mercy killing well in mind when they recommended the abolition of the mandatory life sentence.
	Perhaps I may say a brief word about the mandatory sentence. I remain firmly of the view that it ought to be abolished because it is the one single factor that makes coherent reform of the law so difficult. But I accept that, as things are for the moment, its abolition is not a practical possibility, if only because it is opposed by both of the main political parties. They oppose it for reasons that I regard as specious, but nevertheless, there it is. So we must find a solution other than the abolition of the mandatory sentence to deal with the practical problems that arise.
	I now turn from the Nathan report to the Law Commission report. The commission was hamstrung by the obligation imposed on it by the Government to regard the mandatory sentence as continuing. That did not make its task any easier. But at paragraph 7.48, the commission did express the view that a life sentence is "neither necessary nor appropriate" when dealing with the genuine mercy killer. Regrettably, however, it made no final recommendation on that point, because—regrettably again—it had failed to carry out any public consultation on that particular question. It gives that explanation in paragraph 7.30 of its report.
	However, the absence of that public consultation need not matter, because I do not myself believe, and I doubt whether any Member of this House present today believes, that there could be any doubt as to the views of the public on imposing a life sentence on a genuine mercy killer when the judge goes on in the same breath to say that he may serve no more than two or three years at the most. That makes a mockery of the law.
	If it be said that the life sentence is necessary for the protection of the public in such a case, I would ask: is there any known instance of a mercy killer killing twice? So what is to be done?
	Later on, we were to have come to an amendment in the name of the noble Lords, Lord Joffe and Lord Goodhart, in which they had proposed that mercy killing be charged as manslaughter, and not as murder. I think that amendment has now been withdrawn, but my amendment would achieve exactly the same result in practice, but by a different—and I suggest simpler—route.
	Its advantage is that it would not require a definition of mercy killing on the face of the Bill. It would leave that question to be decided in each case on the facts by the jury, which is where the decision belongs. My experience of trying many murder cases is that the more one leaves to the jury the safer one is. So much then for the first advantage—mercy killing. I can deal with the other advantages more briefly.
	The second advantage is that it would cater for those difficult cases, of which Clegg is the best known example, where a soldier or a policeman fires and kills in the agony of the moment. They may be technically guilty of murder, as the law now stands, but to have to sentence a man such as that to life imprisonment, when they will in practice serve only a year or two at most, again, makes a mockery of the law.
	Thirdly, the amendment would cover the case of the battered wife. The Government believe that the existing law of provocation favours the husband who kills in anger, as against the wife who kills the husband after years of suffering abuse. They say that the law needs to be rebalanced in favour of the battered wife. That was the view that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, if he remembers, expressed to me in his letter of 18 May—a view with which I very largely agree.
	The case of the battered wife is indeed a very deserving one, but it cannot be dealt with by rejigging the law of provocation, as we shall see when we come to Clause 44. The battered wife who makes a deliberate decision to kill her husband has not lost her self-control; nor can she be brought within it in any way by extending the existing law of diminished responsibility. On the other hand, the battered wife is just the sort of person who should be covered and would be covered by this amendment, as it would enable the jury to find extenuating circumstances.
	Finally, I come to the fourth advantage. There have always been awkward cases on the edge of provocation and of diminished responsibility, like the case of Doughty. A parent who has been without sleep for nights on end because of a crying baby loses his or her temper and throws the baby on the floor, with fatal consequences. What conceivable point is served by sentencing such a person to life imprisonment? One thing is certain beyond any doubt: he or she will not do it again. The thought that other parents might be deterred is clearly absurd. Doughty is just the sort of case where a jury should be able to exercise what is sometimes called the jury equity and find extenuating circumstances.
	I now turn briefly to the safeguards. The first and most obvious is that it would be up to the judge to decide whether there was evidence on which a reasonable jury might find extenuating circumstances. If there was no such evidence, he would say nothing about it in his summing up. If there was, he would say that it was for the jury, and the jury alone, to decide whether there were such circumstances. He would not give any indication, one way or the other, of his own view. There would, of course, be nothing to stop the jury from adding a rider where it had not been told about such evidence by the judge but the judge would not be bound by such a rider and would pass a sentence of life imprisonment in the ordinary way.
	The second safeguard is that in any case where the judge does not pass a mandatory sentence, he would be obliged to give his reasons. Those reasons could then be looked at by the Attorney-General, and if the Attorney-General took the view that the sentence was too lenient, he or she could refer it to the Court of Appeal.
	Lastly, I come to why I think the amendment would be effective. First, it is not dissimilar, although it is by no means the same as, to the old recommendation to mercy in the days of capital punishment. The Home Secretary was not obliged to accept such a recommendation, but in many cases he did. As far as I am aware, it did not cause any problem. That practice fell out of use but only because it was thought in those days to be unconstitutional for the jury to recommend mercy, which was the prerogative of the Crown rather than of anybody else.
	Secondly, such a system was found to have worked well in France in the days when there were minimum sentences for a large number of grave offences. It was open to the jury in France to find "circonstances atténuantes"; in that case, the minimum sentence did not apply. Thirdly, and perhaps even more relevantly, this worked well in South Africa in the days when it had capital punishment.
	Those are the reasons why I believe the amendment would work. Before sitting down, I should like to pay a very warm tribute to Professor John Spencer of Selwyn College, Cambridge. The ideas that I have put before your Lordships today were not mine in origin—I wish I could say that they had been—but his. I believe that they are a sensible and practical solution to many of the problems which will continue to arise until the mandatory sentence is finally abolished. If the idea finds favour with your Lordships, the credit belongs not to me but to Professor Spencer. I beg to move.

Lord Goodhart: I strongly support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, in his Amendment 150A, to which I have added my name. I have for a long time believed that a mandatory life sentence for murder was wrong. Murder covers an immense spectrum, from sadistic, multiple murders to mercy killing of a beloved spouse or partner. The sentencing should be given an equally wide spectrum.
	When the Government asked the Law Commission some years ago to report on changes to the law of murder, they expressly excluded from consideration the removal of the mandatory life sentence. This was, frankly, a surrender to the tabloid press. The Government almost certainly knew that the mandatory sentence was wrong; they must have known that the Law Commission would very probably say so; therefore, they prevented any discussion of the mandatory nature of the sentence.
	We were left as a result with a complex proposal by the Law Commission for new legislation about murder, creating separate first and second degrees of murder which I believe were unnecessary and which have in any event not so far been implemented—nor have the Government shown any signs of doing so.
	Mandatory sentences have a seriously damaging effect. They make necessary, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, pointed out, the partial defences of diminished responsibility and provocation. Diminished responsibility is often used to exclude mercy killers from life sentence by an overgenerous interpretation of what constitutes diminished responsibility. This is an act of kindness by the judge and the jury, but it means that the law is being distorted. Provocation is an unsatisfactory defence, because it has developed into a complex legal principle which it is far from easy for a judge to explain to the jury. The law would be greatly simplified and made more humane by abolishing the mandatory sentence for murder and leaving what are now partial defences to be dealt with by a procedure which would enable sentencers to take them into account.
	My original view was that all that was needed was to abolish the mandatory life sentence and leave sentencing to the judge. However, the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, improves on this considerably—thanks are indeed due to the professor—by involving the jury as well as the judge. That is a crucial step. It is both correct in principle and would make the change in the law much more acceptable to the public. First, the judge would have to direct the jury that it could conclude that there were extenuating circumstances. Secondly, the jury would then have to agree that there were extenuating circumstances which justified a maximum sentence of less than life. Thirdly, there would be a possibility of appeal to the Court of Appeal against an unduly lenient sentence.
	I would ask one question of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, as a matter simply of explanation. I assume that the number of members of the jury required for finding that extenuating circumstances existed would be 10, 11 or 12, which is the same number as is required for providing a conviction or an acquittal. That means that in the case of a unanimous conviction by 12 jurors for murder, the rider finding extenuating circumstances would require 10 jurors to support it, not all 12. The noble and learned Lord will tell me whether that is correct.
	The amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, would simplify the law and make it much fairer. It should make it possible, for example, to limit diminished responsibility to cases of mentally disturbed murderers who needed to be placed in a secure mental hospital and not in an ordinary prison. The amendment should enable provocation to be eliminated as a partial defence, and it should enable people whose actions did not deserve a potential life sentence to avoid one. As I have already said, because of the necessity of consent of the jury to the process, it would be much more acceptable to the public.
	The amendment would make an admirable change to the law. It would remove the absolute requirement of mandatory sentence, but do so only if both the judge and the jury were satisfied that there were extenuating circumstances which justified a lesser maximum sentence.
	I think that at one stage the noble and learned Baroness, the Attorney-General, said that the best is the enemy of the good. I hope that that means that she thinks that what is proposed in the amendment is the best. It certainly seems to me to be the best, but I do not think that in this case it is the enemy of the good. There is a strong case for adopting the amendment and the principles behind it.

Baroness Butler-Sloss: I also have put my name to the amendment. I strongly agree with the way in which it was put forward by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart. I add only that I share the dismay of other Members of this Committee that part 2 of the Law Commission's proposals has been put ahead of part 1, but until the Government are able to make up their mind as to what they want, what is proposed in the amendment would provide an opportunity for a jury, properly directed, to make findings of fact on extenuating circumstances, a power which they do not have at the moment, and give flexibility to the judge to deal appropriately with the facts of a case to show the difference between, for instance, a mercy killing and other cases such as the Clegg case and somebody who it is clear should be given a serious life sentence with a long term as the tariff. For those short reasons, supporting the reasons already given, I hope that the amendment will commend itself to the Committee.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: On behalf of these Benches, I, too, strongly support the amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord following the cogent article or response to the Law Commission by Professor Spencer which I had earlier read. Earlier in this afternoon's debates, the noble and learned Baroness, the Attorney-General, told us of conversations that she has had with victims of murder. I do not doubt for one moment that they have taken place, though perhaps often in fairly highly charged cases. As a veteran probably of as many murder cases as anyone in this Chamber, both as prosecutor and defender, I must say to her that I have found over the years that, provided as prosecutor or defender you explain the process carefully to the families during the trial, which happily counsel is now able and encouraged by the Attorney-General and the Director of Public Prosecutions to do, their understanding of the process is much increased and they understand that an empirical sentencing process needs to be carried out somehow or other.
	As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, this proposal adds participation by the public in the form of the jury in the process of decision-making, not only on the bare facts founded on the judge's direction of law but on the qualification and quality of those facts. The noble and learned Baroness, the Attorney-General, said earlier that we were somewhere on a long process towards reforming the law of murder. I would simply encourage her on behalf of these Benches to seize on the opportunity at least to make some progress today.

Lord Clinton-Davis: I, too, support the proposition advanced by the noble and learned Lord. For many years, I practised in the criminal courts and was engaged in several murder cases, most of which went all right, but some of which did not.
	I am not unduly concerned about the authorship of the proposal. I wish it had been centred entirely on the noble and learned Lord, based on his experience. I would have felt more comfortable about that. It is essential that we should do something about the anomalies that exist. To wait indefinitely, as the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General proposed on the last amendment, is in my view a counsel of despair. We should at least try. If the law needs further amendment afterwards that is acceptable—we can do that in the light of experience. To do it without any experience at all and to wait indefinitely is intolerable. I found the arguments that have been advanced by the noble and learned Lord and others persuasive, reasonable and logical. I do not like the idea of the criminal law being brought into contempt. How long will that be allowed to go on? How long will we have to put up with the uncertainty?
	It is important that we should acknowledge the principle of change and accept that. If we are proved wrong, it will be possible to do something about that in the future. An overwhelming case has been made out for change right away.
	The noble and learned Lord also referred to important safeguards. It would be otiose for me to go over these again. He was right to mention the safeguards which can so easily come into operation. This is not a party matter. All in all, we ought to support the idea.
	I would like to know what the Law Society, the Bar Council and those who are engaged in criminal law have to say about this. Surely, the Government have conversed with all of them as well as with the victims. I greatly respect the noble and learned Baroness, the Attorney-General, who is one of the best Attorneys-General we have had. My aside is intended to establish that we approve of this idea now. It is important that we should be able to make some progress on this significant matter instead of neglecting it for years to come.

Lord Williamson of Horton: I insinuate myself briefly among the lawyers, since all the preceding speakers on this amendment were lawyers. I took note of that. I strongly support this amendment. We have had a huge amount of discussion over a lot of time about the extent to which extenuating circumstances should play a role in the judge's decisions on sentences for murder, contrary to the existing mandatory life sentence. One approach has been to try to define types of murder and manslaughter in order to bring the law more in line with practice, which is a mandatory life sentence accompanied by a tariff which modifies the life sentence in many cases. We have tried to do that. The attempt in the preceding amendment was on those lines.
	We now have Amendment 150A in front of us. This amendment corresponds precisely to the way in which I think we should go, for two reasons. First, it provides the flexibility which is obviously necessary because of the different circumstances of these cases. Secondly, it brings in the jury in a role that I strongly support. The jury has a role in giving its opinion on the extenuating circumstances—whether they do or do not exist. This is an excellent amendment, which I strongly support, among the many lawyers who apparently take the same view.

Baroness Mallalieu: I add my voice in support of the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. I understand the reason for the speech that my noble and learned friend the Attorney-General gave in relation to the last amendment. I have heard it from her before on a previous occasion when mandatory life sentences were raised, and I have heard it from those on the other side of the House when the topic has been raised earlier when I have been in the House. I see that it is extremely difficult for any political party to say they are going to make that major change. I was grateful that the noble Baroness, Lady Knight, reminded us of the undertaking that was given at the time of the abolition of the death penalty, because that underlies the decisions that will be made by the Front Benches.
	It seems to me that this amendment finds a way of somehow mitigating the damage that has been done by the mandatory life sentence. It does not go behind the undertakings that were made at the time because in effect it provides a discretion to those who have had the advantage of hearing the evidence in the court. Those of us who are practising at the Bar and who have sat in many murder cases over the years are bound to say that not only do they all vary in their facts but they all vary in the degree of culpability. As others have said, not all murders merit a life sentence. The majority undoubtedly do but there are those—the mercy killings, the soldier, the one-off—which do not. To watch the judge, the prosecutor and the defence trying to find a way to achieve the right result is not the way justice should be administered. Consistency is needed but so are honesty, openness, clarity and, above all, justice. One size does not fit all in relation to murder cases.
	This amendment seems to shine a light for the first time in a way which I hope the Government can take forward. This is a light into a way in which the jury and the judge, faced with these extremely difficult and not very common circumstances, can reach a means of imposing the right sentence on the offender. I hope it will not receive a blanket rejection today. I hope it will be taken away, because the sense round the whole of this Committee is that the time has come for us to make some progress. Even if we cannot tackle the whole of the law of murder, which I think we ought to be doing in a separate Bill, this is one area in which this piece of legislation could at least show some reform and some advance.

Lord Pannick: I support this amendment for all the reasons that have been given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and by so many other noble Lords. It is striking indeed that so many lawyers should agree about anything. I would add one further argument in favour of the amendment. We all know that there are occasions when the jury is reluctant to convict, despite compelling evidence that the defendant is guilty of murder. The jury is reluctant to convict because of its concern that on the facts of the case a mandatory life sentence is simply inappropriate. One of the great attractions of the amendment is that it would involve the jury in the assessment of whether there are extenuating circumstances.
	The amendment would serve the very valuable purpose of mitigating the absurdities of the mandatory life sentence for all cases of murder. The Attorney-General suggested earlier, in answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Knight, that it is necessary to maintain public confidence, which may require the retention of the mandatory life sentence. I ask the Attorney-General to explain to us how it maintains public confidence for us to retain the mandatory life sentence when the trial judge, immediately after passing the sentence, tells the defendant, the victim's family and everyone concerned that this sentence means that the defendant will therefore serve a tariff of a defined number of years and will thereafter be released if and when it is safe to do so. Surely that serves only to undermine public confidence in the law. Unless and until the Government come forward with a systematic reform of the law of murder, this amendment would be a substantial improvement on what we have now and will serve only to strengthen public confidence in this area of the law.

Baroness Warnock: I very strongly support the amendment. I rise to speak only so that there should be more than one non-legal voice speaking in this debate. In this case, philosophy undoubtedly supports the voice of the law, as it so often does—and perhaps we should say it the other way round, that jurisprudence is a version of philosophy. It is absolute nonsense on the practical point, as my noble friend has just pointed out, to suppose that a life sentence when passed should immediately be revoked and turned into something else. Far beyond that, I think that everybody who has ever been interested in questions of responsibility, blame or conflicting senses of duty realises that there are a large number of extenuating circumstances, particularly in the case of mercy killings, which were mentioned at the beginning of the debate. This is a very good amendment and I strongly support it.

Lord Neill of Bladen: If a lawyer was here and did not take part in the debate on this amendment, it would be a bit like those who were in bed on St Crispin's Day, when the battle was being fought in France. They would be ashamed in later life of the role that they played that day—so I do not want that reproach.
	To establish my qualifications, as a young barrister, I once prosecuted a murder case when there was capital punishment and, by the grace of God, the defendant was found unfit to plead and I never had to appear in a second murder case when there was capital punishment.
	The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has picked on a very important point, in the fudged verdict. Those who are familiar with English legal history—although they will not get a dissertation on that from me now—may recall a crime that used to be called grand larceny, to be guilty of which you had to steal an object worth more than 40 shillings. The issue of whether it was worth more than that was left to the jury, who would habitually value a diamond ring at well below that amount. The other day—well, not the other day but about 15 years ago—there was a case of malicious destruction of some weapon of war that was going to be exported to tyrants who would use it to suppress their population. The people involved, who were mainly women, although there may have been some gallant men there as well, physically destroyed that weapon of war and were charged with malicious damage, or whatever it was. To the amazement of all except the legal historians, they were acquitted, because the jury were simply not going to find them guilty of putting out of the power of a tyrant a weapon of destruction.
	To allow the extenuating circumstance rider to be added is a great improvement on the existing law. There may be problems to be faced, although we do not need to go into that now, in that the clause says that the judge will make up his mind in relation to the facts as found by the jury, who will have to make some finding about the particular facts that amount to the extenuating circumstances. Without complicating the issue today, one can imagine circumstances when there were rivals as to which of the so-called alleged extenuating circumstances matched up to it. But the general idea seems wholly praise-worthy and we should adopt it.

Lord Elystan-Morgan: I, too, support the amendment. As a circuit judge, I never had to try a person for murder, but more than 40 years ago, when I was a Minister in the Home Office, one task was to advise the Home Secretary of the day on the issue of life sentences. One realised then how much of an obscenity some of those cases were when a mandatory life sentence had to be passed. The noble Lords, Lord Neill and Lord Pannick, pointed to what the ancients used to call pious perjury, whereby a jury would go out of its way to find that there were some circumstances that would save a person from the injustice that would otherwise be brought upon them in that particular case.
	There are cases that call for our attention, and there are three things that we can do. One is to do nothing but to hope that in some way the political parties will be educated and will educate their supporters to be responsible and just in these circumstances, allowing much greater flexibility for the sentencing judge in cases of murder. That is a far-flung possibility that we may not live to see come about. Secondly, we could define each and every one of the categories, which would be a recipe for disaster, as there will always be categories beyond our comprehension that will turn up in cases from time to time.
	The third possibility is to accept the amendment. It is not perfect but, if King Solomon was sitting in judgment in the Supreme Court in Jerusalem, I doubt whether he would be able to bring about a perfect solution to the situation. It is not perfect for this reason. Imagine a typical afternoon, when many juries up and down the country have been sent out to consider a verdict of murder. Some come back having been given this direction; it is only within the scope of the test of reasonableness that the judge will have spelt out to them that they will be able to come to the conclusion concerning extenuating circumstances. Each jury is an individual and unique animal, and a jury in Chelmsford may find that there are circumstances that are within the ambit of the amendment, while a jury in Chester, in circumstances virtually identical, will find that there are not. That, I am afraid, is the price that has to be paid for bringing about the advantage that the amendment carries with it.
	It may be that members of the general public will say that within the ambit of that test of whether there is evidence on which a jury can find reasonably, each jury is acting almost like a legislature. However, in many respects, juries are acting as legislators in any event. So I have those words of reservation, but only because I appreciate that the situation is intractably difficult. This is almost certainly the best solution yet suggested in this context.

Baroness Murphy: I am very attracted to the ingeniously simple wording of the amendment and am a strong supporter of it. It would stop, as the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, said, the performance of stretching the criteria of diminished responsibility, which should surely be constrained to those whose diminished responsibility is a result of a mental disorder or disability or some other specific criteria. At the moment, we know that the diminished responsibility rules are fudged in relation to mercy killing. There is a very good reason for introducing it into this legislation. In a later group of amendments we shall debate at length the subtle changes to the criteria on diminished responsibility, which will have the effect of making them slightly more difficult to use because their description is going to be slightly tightened up. Many psychiatrists have pressed for this to make them more consistent with current medical practice, but it means that it will make them more difficult to use in circumstances where this amendment would be of great utility.
	We will come on much later to the issue of infanticide, but one of the major reasons for preserving the extraordinary current law of infanticide is that there seems to be no other way to deal with the very young women who give birth, are in a state of distress and kill the child quickly. That is a dreadful circumstance, which at the moment is catered for under infanticide as it is extremely difficult to fit them into the formal diminished responsibility criteria. It will be more difficult to fit them into other criteria. Of course infanticide does exist, and it is intended that it should exist, but I hope to convince the Committee that it should not continue. If the Bill were amended in this way it would deal with many of the problems that we are making for ourselves with regard to diminished responsibility and would allow us to tackle other cases such as mercy killing.

Lord Mayhew of Twysden: Perhaps I may offer a word of sympathy and encouragement to the noble and learned Baroness; I hope that will not alarm her. I understand the reasons she gave in her response to the previous group of amendments, when she spoke of the privilege she had—it was typical of her that she should express it like that—of talking to the families of those who have suffered bereavement at the hands of murderers. That is what you might call a "straight from the heart" reaction. I quite understand that, as must anybody who has had any ministerial responsibility. It was not particularly exhilarating of the Government, of whom I must take my share of collective responsibility, that we set aside the recommendation of the Law Commission. I understand the reason that was done.
	However, I suggest to the noble and learned Baroness that the straight from the heart reaction does not come solely from that source. I should like her to envisage the feelings of the family of a soldier in the conditions in Northern Ireland before there was, happily, a turn for the better—the case of Clegg has already been mentioned—when somebody fires in circumstances where it is obligatory, given the strength of the evidence, that he be prosecuted for murder and is convicted of murder.
	Consider the position of his family, who find that he is sentenced and has to be sentenced to the same mandatory sentence as is wholly appropriate for a terrorist who has gone onto the streets for the purpose of committing murder. The soldier goes onto the streets in those circumstances for the purpose of preventing murder. The terrorist goes onto the streets for the purpose of committing murder and yet the sentence for each is the same. The straight from the heart reaction of the families of the soldier does not need me to describe it. The great beauty—if I may put it like that—of this amendment is that it enables the public, as has already been said, through the jury, to express through a finding of extenuating circumstances the reason why a mandatory sentence need not be imposed.

Lord Low of Dalston: I am not too sure how I should be classified, whether as a lawyer or as a layman. I never practised law but I did teach it once, including criminal law, but that was a very long time ago. Therefore, I think I should probably be classed as a layman on this issue this evening. That is no bad thing because I would like to take my place alongside the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, not among the chorus of lawyers who have supported the amendment, but among those laymen who are perhaps in a position to explain to the Committee how this matter appears from the point of view of the ordinary man in the street, so to speak. I want to add my voice to the chorus of support which there has been for the amendment.
	The rigidity of the mandatory life sentence is universally recognised, and has been in this debate, to give rise to major deformities in our law of homicide. One particular deformity that it gives rise to and one undesirable consequence is that it leads to fictional findings of diminished responsibility; for example, to accommodate the mercy killer, who may well have been acting under stress, but who was certainly not acting irrationally. Indeed, they may well have been following what seemed to them to be a highly rational course of conduct.
	The Law Commission in its review of the partial defences to murder in 2004 said in relation to mercy killing:
	"At present, in such cases, a conviction for murder, with consequent mandatory life sentence, can only be avoided by"—
	what it called—
	"'a benign conspiracy' between psychiatrists, defence, prosecution and the court to bring them within",
	the scope of the defence of diminished responsibility. It went on:
	"It is however a blight on our law that such an outcome has to be connived at rather than arising openly and directly from the law".
	Whatever one thinks of this fiction, this connivance, it is now certainly made more difficult, as the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, indicated, by the Bill. Under the law as it stands, to establish the defence of diminished responsibility the defendant has to show that he was suffering from such abnormality of mind, whether arising from a condition of arrested or retarded development of mind or any inherent causes, or induced by disease or injury, as substantially impaired his mental responsibility for his acts and omissions. This is a fairly broad and loose concept, which is put to the jury to find their way through as best they can.
	Under the new definition of diminished responsibility, which will be introduced by the Bill, the defendant would need to be shown to have been suffering from a recognised medical condition at the time of the act, which substantially impaired their ability to understand the nature of their conduct, to form a rational judgment, or to exercise self-control.
	The defence of diminished responsibility will thus be considerably tightened up. That is no doubt a good thing. It will help to put an end to fictional findings of diminished responsibility. That being the case, it is clear that we will now need the amendment that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has brought forward this evening, which could well be the best way to ensure that the law can continue to show compassion to genuine mercy killers through clear, open procedures set down in statute and subject to public scrutiny rather than through the hidden means of the benign conspiracy.

Lord Alderdice: I want to take a matter that has been referred to by a number of noble Lords, including the noble and learned Lords, Lord Lloyd of Berwick and Lord Mayhew, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. That is the Clegg case.
	What has been addressed is one component of the public and personal reaction to the situation of a soldier who, by nature of his job, finds himself effectively being convicted of murder. But there is another side to it as well, which also gives support to this elegant and powerfully and persuasively argued amendment. Consider that not everyone in the population pays quite so much attention to the question of murder as is the case in your Lordships' House, but notices those which are of great importance to them as well as the political stance of the leaders of Governments. In my part of the world, one of the statements that rung through again and again was the Prime Minister speaking of murder being murder being murder.
	Then we have a situation in which a soldier is convicted of murder. There is no possibility of the jury applying extenuating circumstances. There is a requirement for a mandatory life sentence. But what is seen from an Irish perspective is a Prime Minister saying that murder is murder, a British solider being convicted in a British court of murder, a mandatory life sentence being the appropriate sentence, but "the British establishment" deciding that of course the solider should not serve it. We all know and appreciate that it is wholly appropriate that the solider should not serve it, but that is not necessarily how it is seen in Ireland.
	However, if an amendment of this kind were part of the law, and the jury, not the judge, was able to identify that there were extenuating—and, in the case of a soldier carrying out his job, more than mere—circumstances, that would send a message to the population that those engaged in the detailed consideration of the problem viewed it not as being merely murder, but murder in a certain and particular circumstance with enormous extenuating circumstances. So, in no way diminishing the arguments about the solider and his family's plight that have been adduced, but taking into account the requirements and concerns of the public, there is another perspective that simply adds weight and support to the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and others.

Lord Joffe: When I read the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, I immediately withdrew my own amendment, as this one, which I strongly support, is so much more elegant and skilfully drawn. The amendment extends well beyond mercy killing but, as I no longer regard myself as a lawyer, I will focus only on that aspect, which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has raised, as I have some knowledge of the issue.
	I approach the issue not, as I say, as a lawyer, but as someone concerned with justice, and with justice for everyone. The amendment must be considered in the context of the changes in the law proposed in Clause 42, which would result in a mandatory life sentence for a mercy killer. The noble Lord, Lord Low, has drawn attention to what the Law Commission, in its report 290 in August 2004, referred to as the benign conspiracy between psychiatrists, the defence, the prosecution and the court to avoid convictions for murder. Clause 42 appears intended to prevent that benign conspiracy which, although it was a fudge from a legal point of view, was a humane fudge that often resulted in non-custodial sentences for persons found guilty of mercy killing. Under the proposed law, there would not be that gap, and mercy killers who kill for compassionate reasons will face a mandatory life sentence.
	We have, then, this obvious injustice in Clause 42 that mercy killers who, out of compassion for someone who they love, reluctantly assist their loved ones to die and will receive the same mandatory life sentence as murderers who kill maliciously for gain. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has pointed out, it makes a mockery of the law. The mandatory life sentence is the most severe punishment that can be imposed on a convicted accused. It must bring the law into disrepute if a compassionate act attracts the same sentence as a dreadful murder.
	If the amendment were accepted, it would bring some consistency to the law where the Government have surprisingly accepted the Law Commission's recommendation that, pending the outcome of any public consultation, Section 4 of the Homicide Act 1957 should be retained. This section provides that the survivor of a suicide pact is guilty of manslaughter, not murder, if the defence proves that he was acting in pursuance of the pact. So if Clause 42 becomes law we will have the strange and seemingly irrational outcome that a mercy killer found guilty will be sentenced to mandatory life imprisonment unless they happen to be the survivor of a suicide pact, in which case they will only be guilty of manslaughter, thereby providing the judge with discretion as to their sentence. Can my noble and learned friend the Attorney-General explain the rationale behind this extraordinary position? It seems on the face of it that, as the Law Commission has earlier said, the law is in a mess. Clause 42 will increase rather than solve that mess.
	If they were concerned about justice, it would have been far more rational for the Government to have deferred tightening the law on diminished responsibility under Clause 42 until the public consultation on mercy killing recommended by the Law Commission had taken place, in exactly the same way as they have deferred the decision on suicide pacts. That suggests that the Government may never really have intended the draconian outcome of mandatory life sentences for all mercy killers, because I do not believe that the Government are not concerned about injustice.
	In their consultation paper CP19/08, the Government stated that the aim of the Bill is to ensure that the law is just, effective and up to date, producing outcomes that command public confidence. The Bill is to be applauded in its aim to prevent the encouragement of suicide through the medium of the internet, but it is not just in respect of mercy killings. It is too early to say whether it will be effective, but one outcome is certain: it will not produce outcomes that command public confidence.
	In the present climate of uncertainty over the lack of public confidence in Parliament, leaders of political parties have expressed concern that Parliament is out of touch with the opinions of the electorate and must listen to their views. Public opinion surveys consistently show that 80 per cent of the public support assisted dying. While this is not the place for a debate about decriminalising assisted dying, it follows from these surveys that at least 80 per cent of society would be appalled at a law that results in mandatory life sentences for mercy killers. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has pointed out, the Law Commission commissioned Professor Mitchell to undertake surveys for it, which the commission recorded in its report. The professor found:
	"The surveys reveal very little support for the imposition of a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment in genuine cases of 'mercy' killing".
	Is it time that the Government take account of the views of the overwhelming majority of the population, who would undoubtedly support the amendment? It is encouraging that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, supports the amendment, as he and I have had different views on assisted dying.

The Lord Bishop of Winchester: As the debate on the amendment has proceeded I am sure that I am not the only Member of the Committee who is not a lawyer who has found it enormously instructive. I have been increasingly convinced by the case made by the noble and learned Lord and so many others who have spoken for the amendment. As I have done so, and as that has been the way in which my mind has been moving, and even before the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, stood up, I had an increasing quaver of dis-ease, to put it mildly. Although I fully understood the noble and learned Lord's case and respected it, my dis-ease began when he spoke of mercy killing, which is a difficult phrase, in his outlaying of the amendment.
	I have been asking myself what may be the effect on public thinking and the media which we are told over again by the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, is in a particular position on matters that will come later in the Bill and what may be the effect of thinking in the Committee when we reach the amendments in the names of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice—probably not this evening. As I listened to the noble Lord, my concerns became all the stronger, even though, like him, I had noticed that among those learned and experienced in the law—what a strange thing that the term "learned" is applied in your Lordships' House only to learning in the law and not to other things—who have supported the noble and learned Lord's amendment, are those whom I know to be strongly opposed to the amendments to come in the names of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice.
	This leaves me concerned; the quaver has become much greater and it is not simply dis-ease but considerable anxiety about the effects as it is working out in the Committee. The question I want to ask—it will matter to me what answer I receive—relates to proposed new subsection (4) of the new clause, which brings into play the Attorney-General. I would like to be clear that were a trial judge to make such a statement as he or she is enabled to by proposed new subsections (1) and (2), and if a jury so found that that was reasonable in relation to what the noble and learned Lord has spoken of as mercy killing, would it be open to the Attorney-General to question that and to do so clearly?
	The Attorney-General has nodded, but it will be interesting to hear her speak. She has not nodded; she has shaken her head. I am not sure whether she has shaken her head to my saying that she has nodded or whether she has shaken her head more generally, which is why it is important to rely on speech in your Lordships' House. I should want to know that the law in these matters would not be made simply by a judge and jury, important as the jury is in these matters but that if the Attorney-General in the public interest believed that the law was slithering in the direction in which some noble Lords might wish it to run, the Attorney-General could ask those questions and bring back the case.
	As well as that detail I want to note a gathering unease, which leads me to the point of not being at all clear how it would be right to vote, were we to vote on the amendment, on the grounds that I have outlined.

Lord Alton of Liverpool: I would like briefly to follow the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester in expressing a little unease. I support the amendment and I was taken by the arguments of my noble and learned friend. I often find myself in agreement with what he has to say and I do so again this evening. I am concerned about some of the other arguments that have been adduced during the course of the debate that have caused the creeping unease to which the right reverend Prelate has referred. The arguments advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, and others about fudged verdicts are compelling. Looking at the way in which mandatory sentences are imposed is a right and proper thing for us to do. Many of us at Second Reading expressed concern that within the Bill there was no opportunity to look in great detail at the law on murder and many expressed again during Committee the thought that we probably need a separate piece of legislation to look at the matter in detail in the future. I would be one to sign up to that.
	I want to follow something that the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, said in his remarks. He has made great play of the point about mercy killing as a reason why we should now pass the amendment. The arguments for fudged verdicts are good, but the argument about mercy killing is one we should consider carefully. I would like to ask the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General how many people have in any event been sentenced to life imprisonment as a result of mercy killing. How often do such cases come before our courts? The reality is that this is a theological argument; in a legal sense we would rarely find such cases. I am not aware of anyone being given a life sentence for so-called mercy killing.
	However, I am struck that at the beginning of our proceedings on the Bill we have spent a great deal of time looking at the coroners service arising out of the killings of over 226 people by Dr Harold Shipman. I am struck that the defence that he could have offered, if at an earlier stage he had been brought to court, is that he had done such things as an act of mercy killing. Would that have been a defence in law and would he have been brought before the courts and given a mandatory sentence? We need to know how that would have happened in reality.
	The noble Lord, Lord Joffe, in his argument, said that we should rely on public opinion. As I experienced while a Member of another place for a division of the City of Liverpool, many people there were in favour of the restoration of capital punishment. I was regularly told in general elections that if only I would commit myself to the restoration of capital punishment they would vote for me. Many opinion polls show a majority of people who would like to see the restoration of capital punishment. However, as a matter of prudential judgment, I disagreed with that view and have always voted against it, for reasons that we would not have time to debate here tonight but I suspect that many would be in agreement with. We should not therefore necessarily rely on public opinion. The right reverend Prelate was right to say that we should have some concern about some of the arguments being adduced during this debate and the destination to which that might lead us.

Lord Kingsland: I know that your Lordships will agree when I say that the Committee owes a great debt to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, not only for the terms of his amendment but for the quality of the debate in your Lordships' House that it has engendered. In promoting his amendment, the noble and learned Lord exhibited the intellect of a former Lord of Appeal in Ordinary, together with the experience that he has brought from sitting as a High Court judge in many murder trials.
	I agree with the assessment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, that the abolition of the mandatory life sentence is not a political option at present. It is not on the table, as the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, suspected in her intervention, and will not be in the foreseeable future.
	The value of the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, is that it recognises that fact. In redefining the offence of murder in its report, the Law Commission also recognises that as a fact. However, like the Law Commission report, the issue that this amendment addresses is not the mandatory life sentence but the appropriate definition of murder to which it should apply.
	That brings me to my first question to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. In his amendment, to which definition of murder does he foresee the mandatory life sentence applying? In other words, what is the starting point before the court goes on to consider extenuating circumstances? Is it the existing definition of murder? I see the noble and learned Lord nodding and therefore I do not need to go on to suggest what other definitions of murder might have been in his mind.
	I cannot begin to trace the journey that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, undertook that led to the final draft of his amendment, but it is an amendment of great perspicacity because he leaves the role of deciding whether there are extenuating circumstances to the jury. It is the noble and learned Lord at his most deft, if I may say so, and, for the Government, at his most challenging—because the insightfulness, as the Americans say, of the amendment is that the jury is the best possible expression of public opinion that the court could have in looking at what is an appropriate sentence in the circumstances.
	We are told that the great problem that we have with the law relating to murder is public opinion and that, whatever the politicians do, in the end we will always come up against this barrier But what better expression of public opinion in a case can you have than a jury? It comes much closer to the situation than any newspaper editor is able to do and, what is more, it is composed of ordinary members of the public selected at random from our society. Therefore, I hope that the Government will think about this amendment very seriously.
	One hesitation that I have about the amendment is whether too much discretion is left to the jury. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, mentioned a number of possible extenuating circumstances. He addressed mercy killing, the battered wife, the particular issues to which the Doughty case gave rise and, of course, the soldier. I wonder whether these issues ought not to be expressed in the amendment and, if it ultimately succeeds, in the Bill and then the Act. I recognise the difficulties that are involved because one wonders how one can foresee a spectrum of extenuating circumstances.
	This is a real difficulty because, although the amendment gets over the crucial question of public opinion—that is its real ingenuity—nevertheless one has to consider very seriously the extent to which the discretion of the jury should be constrained. I know what the answer of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, will be. He will say that it should be left to the discretion of the judge. I find that initially an attractive solution; but I should certainly like to go away and think about it if that is his response to me.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I have found this an absolutely fascinating and insightful debate. However, as I listened carefully, a number of things became clear. First, although the noble and learned Lord says that he accepts that the mandatory life sentence will remain, perhaps I may respectfully suggest that the effect of the amendment would be that it was, de facto, expunged. Let me explain why that is so.
	We are dealing with a set of partial defences which at the moment would reduce a conviction for murder to one for manslaughter. The amendment proposes to say to the jury, "You may find the person guilty of murder but then you may affect the sentence of murder so that it is capable of being dealt with as if it were manslaughter by using the defence of extenuating circumstances". So there is almost—I hope that the Committee will take this in the spirit in which it is meant, because it is ingenious—a different, benign conspiracy to try to ignore the fact that we have accepted that there will not be any expunging of the mandatory life sentence.
	Before I come to the way in which the amendment would work, perhaps I may take up some of the points raised. First, I say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, that I absolutely understand the position of the soldier's family. Indeed, the privilege extends not only to those who have been subjected to a murder in the ordinary way; the noble and learned Lord will remember that one also has an opportunity to listen to families who go the other way. It is very similar to the one-punch murder/manslaughter case, where the family is devastated that someone who has done something that in one sense looks ridiculous and unintended is dealt with quite firmly. Therefore, I understand the desire here.
	I also understand all those who have spoken about wanting to mitigate the harshness of what would appear to be the mandatory life sentence. The noble Lords, Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Goodhart, put their finger on some of the issues that cause us difficulty. First, the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, says—and he is right—that one will not be able to determine what any particular jury in any particular part of the country might decide amounts to extenuating circumstances. Although the judge can give guidance about that, what criterion will the judge be invited to exercise in determining what can or cannot make up an extenuating circumstance?
	The right reverend Prelate asked whether I could intervene as Attorney-General and, under the provision is crafted, exercise my power under Section 36 of the 1988 Act, which relates to sentence. The answer is that I could not, because that is a power to refer in relation to sentence and not in relation to conviction. It does not relate to the verdict, and a finding of extenuating circumstances under this amendment is not a sentence. Therefore, I would envisage that if the jury in a case of mercy killing—we have talked a lot about the difficulties of cases where mercy killing is in issue—came to the conclusion, and the judge agreed, that such an extenuating circumstance justified the reduction in sentence, they would be entitled to say so.
	There is then the very interesting question of whether Parliament is content that individual jurors in individual circumstances would be able to determine what the law was going to be on a particular day at a particular time. It is for Parliament—

Baroness Murphy: Perhaps the noble and learned Baroness will give way for a moment. Does she accept that in fact that is exactly what happens in relation to the current law of diminished responsibility? The jury makes the decision about the verdict in a case, and there are widespread differences between juries, just as there are widespread differences in time. That plea used to be used 130 times a year; now it is used 20 times a year. I cannot see that there is anything about the use of this amendment in relation to verdicts by juries that is any more difficult than the law that we already have, and will continue to have, in relation to diminished responsibility.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: That is partly the point. One of the things that we aspire to achieve with these provisions is a greater degree of clarity, certainty and, therefore, consistency. That is the aspiration. A number of noble Lords have said, during this debate and elsewhere, that one of the problems we have with the current process is that it lacks clarity, simplicity and certainty. So we are seeking—in both the provisions relating to diminished responsibility and those relating to loss of control—to give a greater degree of clarity so that we know what falls within the categories of murder and manslaughter. That is the whole purpose of this debate.
	This amendment seeks to create what I must respectfully suggest to the House is an unhelpful halfway house between murder and manslaughter, eroding the boundary between the two. It would mean that a person could be convicted of murder but face the consequences which would flow from a manslaughter verdict. It is generally accepted that the rationale for a manslaughter verdict, in circumstances where a partial defence applies, is to allow the defendant to be freed from the full consequences of a murder conviction—that is, a life sentence.
	The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, raised the issue of the life sentence. The life sentence has a real bite because it remains in being for the whole of that individual's life. If at any stage they transgress, they can be brought back. That is why the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, says this is a blunt instrument because the life sentence is for life. It cannot, therefore, be disregarded, saying, "You have done your tariff and that is the end of it". It is not the end of it; it goes on.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: That is the whole point, if I may say so, of the amendment. Does the Minister not accept that there will be cases of a genuine mercy killer having this sentence hanging over them for the rest of their life when it should not be hanging over them?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: That brings us right back to the substance of the general debate of how we should define homicide, and the issues raised by the Law Commission in relation to murder one, murder two and/or manslaughter. We have said, and this debate has demonstrated, that this is a complex, difficult and challenging issue which needs more time. If I may respectfully say so, this amendment seeks to circumvent that debate, not taking it head on but dealing with it by creating a different fudge—one that is very much wanted but one we really should resist.

Baroness Butler-Sloss: What does the Minister mean about needing more time? The Law Commission reported in 2004; we are now over halfway through 2009. How much more time is going to be needed?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I hope I made it clear when I answered the first amendment that everyone—I do not think anyone demurs from this—has found this issue very difficult with far-reaching consequences. If this matter was simple, we would have resolved it a long time ago. It is not simple; it is complex and worrisome. That is why the Government have taken the view that we should take it one tranche at a time.

Lord Clinton-Davis: I asked if the Government had consulted the Law Society, the Bar Council, and those practising in criminal law. Would my noble friend answer that point? It is important that those who have experience as practitioners should be heard.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: The Government have consulted extensively on the homicide provisions, both generally and in terms of each of the Law Commission's reports. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, referred to the extensive consultations there have been. I cannot tell my noble friend whether this particular amendment, which is Professor Spencer's amendment, has been subject to specific consultation. I can certainly undertake to find out whether that is true. But have all of those people been consulted in relation to a plethora of homicide provisions over the past six years? Absolutely. Have we discussed the import of their suggestions? Yes. Has everyone always agreed? Regrettably, not. Is it a continuing, iterative conversation? Yes, it is.
	This amendment seeks to create a third category. You would have murder with extenuating circumstances and then manslaughter, which could be introduced if one of the partial defences was proven. I do not know whether the noble and learned Lord is suggesting that we accept this amendment and expunge the partial defences in relation to provocation. If he is not, we would have three areas—murder, murder with extenuating circumstances and manslaughter. One can see a certain echo with the Law Commission's categories of murder one, murder two and manslaughter. We would argue strongly that this is not the moment to do that.
	We have a real difficulty in terms of defining what the extenuating circumstances are. The term is wholly undefined at the moment so I can give no comfort to the right reverend Prelate and other noble Lords about what falls within the definition and what falls without it. This issue would not be one for Parliament to decide—I know that subsequently we are going to debate the issue of assisted dying and mercy killing—but it would be for the court on the day in question to determine, judge and jury, whether there were extenuating circumstances. For something of such importance to the public at large, I think it is for this House and another place to make that determination after full and proper debate. I understand the attraction of taking this route but I cannot advise your Lordships to adopt it. It would not enable us to look at these issues with the acuity they require. These are hotly contested issues and Parliament, as difficult as it is, will have to decided what it wants in relation to them on behalf of the people of this country. We cannot slip round that by using this amendment, as attractive as I undoubtedly believe it may appear at first blush.

Lord Low of Dalston: Would the noble Baroness accept that she has challenged the amendment with doing far more than it sets out to do? The case that she is making is that the effect of this amendment would be to change the offence and turn it into murder two, as it were. Surely that is not the case. It is still murder and potentially susceptible to a life sentence. All this amendment does is open up some space in which the jury and the judge between them are able to modify the sentence.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Of course I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Low, says, but I shall come back, if I may, to the very good point made by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, when he asked what it means if there is a jury of 12 men and women good and true, 10 of whom decide that there are extenuating circumstances, but 12 of whom conclude that there was murder. There will then be two people on the jury who believe in a full-blown murder without any extenuating circumstances. That is the basis on which they will have convicted the defendant, while others disagree. The jury is being asked to determine a complex set of scenarios. That does not bring clarity or simplicity; it brings complexity. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, was right to raise it, as was the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, with his experience of the circuit bench, who asked about regional differences.

Lord Goodhart: Can the noble and learned Baroness explain what is complex about this? All the jury needs to decide is, first, whether there has been a murder and secondly, and only if the judge says that there are grounds for justifying extenuating circumstances, whether there are such circumstances. If 10 or more members of the jury say that there are extenuating circumstances, the case will proceed on that basis. If fewer than 10 agree, it will not. That seems perfectly simple to me.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: It is perfectly simple if one has a definition of what the extenuating circumstances will be in any given case. In the debate it was said that it would be impossible to define what an extenuating set of circumstances might be. They would have to be specifically honed to the case in point. How can that be done if there is no independent rubric or tool by which it will be measured? I respectfully suggest that this situation would have to be honed so that it was explicable and clear. Before the trial took place, there would be some understanding of the parameters. I understand the desire to find a solution, but I do not think that this is it. I shall now sit down and not get up again.

Lord Neill of Bladen: That is rather discouraging, as I said a moment ago that I would ask a question. The noble and learned Baroness is overcomplicating the position of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. It is absolutely clear what he wants. He has three additional amendments which would get rid of Clauses 44, 45 and 46. Their effect would be to leave the existing law of provocation standing and get rid of the new ideas embodied in Clauses 44 and 45. That is absolutely straightforward.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: I need hardly say that I entirely agree with the noble Lord. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said that it is rare for so many lawyers all to agree. It is extremely rare, but on this occasion we are also joined by many perspicacious laymen who have all expressed views in support of the amendment. I am extremely grateful to all of them. Only two Members of the Committee, other than the Attorney-General, have expressed any doubt; one was the right reverend Prelate, and I do now rather regret having put that fourth paragraph into the amendment, because in truth it is unnecessary. The Attorney-General would be able to refer such a sentence to the Court of Appeal anyway. I would say the same to the noble Lord, Lord Alton. I respect his concerns about the amendment and hope to take them fully into account before bringing the matter back at a later stage.
	I am grateful, as always, for the replies of the noble and learned Baroness. However, I found them disappointing. She said that the amendment was trying to circumvent the mandatory sentence, and said in so many words that it was a fudge. It is not a fudge; it is a way of enabling the jury to enable the judge to reach an appropriate sentence in each case. She said that all the extenuating circumstances that might apply should be defined. I cannot imagine anything more silly, if I may say so. We all know that the circumstances of murder are infinitely various. To attempt to define circumstances that the jury might find to be extenuating would be impossible and would deprive the amendment of all point.
	I had another point to make but I cannot read my handwriting, so I shall leave it at that. However, I promise to bring back the issue, and hope to gain all the same support, on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
	Amendment 150A withdrawn.
	Clause 42 : Persons suffering from diminished responsibility (England and Wales)
	Amendments 150B and 150C not moved.
	Amendment 151
	 Moved by Lord Carlile of Berriew
	151: Clause 42, page 27, line 11, after "functioning" insert "or developmental immaturity"

Lord Carlile of Berriew: This is another amendment prepared by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford which I beg leave to move. I shall speak also to Amendments 153 and 158 and any consequential amendments flowing therefrom.
	The amendments would amend Clause 42(1), which amends Section 2(1) of the Homicide Act 1957, to allow a charge of murder to be reduced to manslaughter if the person who killed another was suffering from an abnormality of mental functioning which arose from developmental immaturity. The amendments would give effect to the Law Commission's recommendation that for defendants under 18, developmental immaturity could be a possible basis for reducing murder to manslaughter. The age of criminal responsibility begins at 10, but there is a great deal of research showing that a child of 10 does not have the same reasoning processes as an adult. They may have—but they may well not have.
	Under the current proposals an adult with a learning difficulty who has the mental age of a child can plead diminished responsibility. On the other hand, a child without a medical condition but with developmental immaturity will not be able to plead diminished responsibility under the current proposals. These amendments would mean that if the child could show that the killing took place because he or she suffered from an abnormality of mental functioning that arose because of developmental immaturity and this substantially impaired the child's ability to understand the nature of his or her conduct, to form a rational judgment or to exercise self-control, and this provides an explanation for the child's actions, that could reduce a murder charge to manslaughter.
	Those would still be substantial hurdles to overcome and a successful plea or verdict would still result in a conviction of a very serious offence—manslaughter. In Committee in the Commons the Government said that this amendment should not be introduced because they said that they had not seen any evidence showing that it was necessary. They said, too, that one of the problems was that many children would raise this as a defence. Many children might raise it as a defence because it has merit both in law and in an analysis of children. I simply do not understand the logic of saying that because it might be a defence that will avail many people, possibly justly, we should not entertain it. The mere fact that this defence might be relied on but ultimately not succeed in other cases cannot justify the Government's position.
	In its 2004 report, Partial Defences to Murder, the Law Commission recommended that the diminished responsibility partial defence should be available to a child or young person under 18 on the ground of developmental immaturity. These amendments would simply give effect to that report. There are many platitudes that one could use about children's development. However, the scientific evidence—the evidence to which we should pay attention—seems to show that in the physiological development of their brains, children are markedly more impulsive. They are driven more by fear and gut reactions. They are more influenced by their circumstances, including what may be very adverse circumstances, and react much less rationally than typical adults. Further, their intellectual development is incomplete. They are still learning about the world and how it works. They do not have the practical experience of situations that adults have.
	Under-18s mature at different rates. Their ability to decide to engage in criminal activity, including committing murder, in the clear knowledge of the full implications and consequences of doing so, must be subject to the developmental level that the individual young person has reached. Knowing the difference between what is legal and illegal is not intrinsic to a child, and it is certainly not intrinsic to every child in the same way at the same rate of development. It needs to be learned. It is a lesson much harder learned by vulnerable children—those who have been neglected, those who have been abused, those who are less able to take logical account of the differentials in behaviour that at least many of us in this House recognise sometimes.
	The omission of developmental immaturity from Clause 42 is particularly material as a result of the abolition of the presumption of doli incapax. It means that any child over the age of 10 in this country is now to be held to understand the significance of their actions and that a partial defence to murder should only be available if a child meets the proposed conditions for a defence of diminished responsibility. The effect is wholly unjust. An adult of 40 with the emotional maturity of a 10 year-old will be able to plea diminished responsibility if they are diagnosed to have a recognised medical condition. On the other hand, a 10 year-old without such a recognised condition but suffering from developmental immaturity of a significant kind cannot succeed with the plea as their development has not been arrested. It is simply ongoing.
	It seems to us that this is a merited defence that will ensure that the law remains just for those under 18. I beg to move.

Lord Lloyd of Berwick: The purpose of this amendment is to add aback the term "developmental immaturity", which was included by the Law Commission but then excluded by the Government. In my view, on this occasion the Government were right. The evidence was that in a case where developmental immaturity is such that it ought to provide a partial defence, it would be covered by the term "recognised medical condition". Furthermore, if it were to be included as a separate head, I can see no reason at all why this amendment—or certainly a later one—should include it simply for those under the age of 18. Why should a person of 18 with a mental age of, say, 10 be entitled to the defence when a person of, say, 40 would not be? It does not make sense. That leads to another difficulty. If a person of 40 with a mental age of 10 is entitled to a partial defence on the grounds of developmental immaturity, what about a child of 10 with a mental age of 10? As has been pointed out, he could not rely on the old rule that a child of 10 is incapable of committing a crime. The child of 10 would be guilty of murder but the man of 40 with a mental age of 10 would not. That seems an absurd result. The less we think about developmental immaturity, the safer ground we shall be on.

The Earl of Listowel: I rise to support Amendment 151, which was so eloquently spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew. I shall speak to my Amendment 154 and, I regret, oppose Amendment 160.
	Amendment 154, standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Murphy, seeks to restore the Law Commission's proposal that courts could consider developmental immaturity in under-18s as a defence permitting a less onerous sentence than murder. I have listened with interest to what my noble and learned friend Lord Lloyd of Berwick said on this point and I will read carefully what he said. Perhaps the first point to make is that we treat children differently before the law. That might be why it is appropriate to think of under-18s as being treated differently in these circumstances.
	I apologise if my drafting is faulty. I hope the Minister will be good enough to speak in her reply to the spirit of the amendment. I am most grateful to Lord Justice Toulson, whose recent speech to the Michael Sieff Foundation inspired the amendment.
	I urge the Minister to reinstate the Law Commission's proposal, which had the backing of the NSPCC, the judges of the Central Criminal Court, the criminal subcommittee of the Council of Her Majesty's Circuit Judges, the Criminal Bar Association, the Youth Justice Board, the Law Society and the Royal College of Psychiatrists. The Law Commission's report stated:
	"5.137 Our recommendation is, therefore, likely to affect only a very few cases, and only by reducing the crime from top-tier homicide to middle-tier homicide. However, for the few cases that do meet the criteria, we believe our recommendation meets requirements of justice recognised as fundamental in civilised legal systems across the world".
	The Minister may say that these children are already caught under the provisions on abnormal functioning of mind. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has already gone into that. Doctor Eileen Vizard, a consultant—

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I apologise for interrupting the noble Earl but, with great respect, we ought to deal with the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, which the noble Earl has already mentioned.
	New subsection (1)(a) in Clause 42(1) makes it absolutely plain that one of the requirements is a recognised mental condition. Does the noble Earl agree that if an adult is suffering from a recognised medical condition which in an adult may be evidenced by developmental immaturity, that will avail the adult, but that, as the clause makes clear, if a child under 18 is suffering from developmental immaturity, that will not be a recognised medical condition that will avail the child? With enormous respect, that is the point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Berwick, on this rare occasion, has not quite got altogether. Does the noble Earl agree?

The Earl of Listowel: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew; that was exactly the point I wished to make. He has made it clear. Perhaps it is worth putting it in my own terms, just so that I can be clear. The assumption is that these children will be caught under abnormal function of mind. That assumes that such children are suffering an abnormality of mind as defined within the defence of diminished responsibility. Such "abnormality of mind" can, under the Homicide Act 1957, include,
	"arrested or retarded development of mind or any inherent causes or induced by disease or injury".
	That does not include any reference to the perfectly natural condition of developmental immaturity in young children. It is wrong to equate childhood developmental immaturity, a normal part of growing up, with abnormality of mind, a concept derived from cases of offending adults with learning disabilities or psychiatric disorders. That the consultation did not throw up a strong call for this measure may reflect only the small number of children affected and the lack of a culture that prioritises child welfare. I would be interested to see, if possible, some of the details of that consultation—and I apologise if it has already been circulated.
	Dr Eileen Vizard, a consultant child and adolescent psychiatrist who gave evidence in the Bulger case and has been treating seriously disturbed young offenders for decades with the NSPCC, states:
	"The overwhelming scientific and clinical evidence base is to the effect that ordinary children between 10 to 14 years old are naturally 'developmentally immature' and therefore unable to make fully adequate judgments about the true seriousness of their behaviour".
	Dr Vizard also highlights how far psychiatry has advanced in recent years in the understanding of brain development in children, to which the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, referred, which continues into late adolescence, and she regrets how far the courts lag behind in applying that understanding.
	I consider that this amendment falls within the spirit of the Government's welcome and progressive steps towards improving child welfare in this country in the 10 years that I have been sitting in your Lordships' House. These children of whom we are speaking will often be the sort of sexually or physically abused or neglected children about whom the Government have been so concerned and in whom they have invested so much. I recall the Quality Protects programme, which was dedicated to providing ring-fenced funding for children in care when the Government first came into office. It made such a difference. Since then there has been the Every Child Matters agenda, which looks at the vulnerability of all our children, and Care Matters, specifically for children in care. I pay tribute to the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General for her work on domestic violence, including the introduction of domestic violence courts and changes to legislation, which has protected children in families where they witness physical violence between their parents. Perhaps a boy would feel protective of his mother when he saw his father coming into the house in a drunken stupor. The Government have taken a lot of positive steps to improve protections for vulnerable children, and they may perhaps wish, on reflection, to embrace this amendment in that tradition.
	Amendment 161 relates to doli incapax. I regret I cannot support it for the reasons that I have already given. It is normal for under-14 year-olds not to have the developmental maturity to be capable of crime, that is, to be fully responsible for their actions in criminal regard. Doli incapax would allow children to show that they were incapable of crime. Children under 15 should not have to prove that they are normal in order to access protection. If anything, one should have to prove that they are abnormal—developmentally precocious—if they are to face criminal sanction. I look forward to the Minister's reply.

Baroness Murphy: I have a number of amendments in this group. I will address developmental immaturity first, but before I do, I shall get in yet another side-swipe on the issue of diminished responsibility as a partial defence. Lawyers and psychiatrists—it is nearly always psychiatrists who appear in court—come from different planets. I think lawyers are from Mars and psychiatrists are from Venus, or something like that. The problem is that lawyers deal in definite contributions to causality, whereas we psychiatrists—I look for support from the other psychiatrist in this House who sits on the Liberal Democrat Benches—tend to deal in small proportions of causality in quite a different way, and we cannot be quite so definite about when something is caused or not.
	The difficulty with all these partial defences is that they use expert psychiatric evidence within contested trial hearings directed towards the jury determining the verdict. As we know, this is an unseemly process for many psychiatrists. It has led to a bunch of so-called expert witnesses who are not properly qualified forensic psychiatrists—the "rent a doc" brigade—who are there to be tapped into to produce a range of expert evidence that the jury has to make a decision about. It is an unseemly job, and psychiatrists are much better at giving evidence at the disposal phase when the jury has already made a decision about guilty or not guilty. This is why it is so important to have these other verdicts available to us.
	One of my psychiatrist colleagues said: "Actually, we don't have all that much difficulty with diminished responsibility when somebody is really mad. It is the ones who aren't mad that create the problems". I am sorry if I am not being politically correct, but the problem is that if you have someone with a rip-roaring psychosis, then everybody is agreed on the issue. The problem is when he does not. For all kinds of reasons that I shall come to later, people do not want to go for not guilty by reason of insanity. So, we are stuck with it. I recognise that, and therefore I am going to probe on a number of issues in the Bill.
	Psychiatrists have looked very carefully at the Bill. The Royal College of Psychiatrists was closely involved in the discussions that led to the changes that have come now as slight shifts in the diminished responsibility criteria. Some of my amendments—not the one on developmental immaturity—are probing amendments to get the thinking of the Government and the processes clearly established in the record. I particularly refer to Amendments 155, 157 and 162. I am grateful for the letter I have received from the Attorney-General and the opportunity I had to discuss the amendments with the noble Lord, Lord Bach.
	On developmental immaturity, I support the amendment that refers specifically to normal children. The Law Commission recommended that developmental immaturity should be added to the phrase,
	"arose from a recognised medical condition",
	as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, mentioned, but people who have a recognised medical condition, particularly if it is a learning disability, already have a defence in that regard. The introduction of the additional basis for a finding of diminished responsibility of immaturity should be restricted to children who are immature as part of their normality and stage of development. To allow immaturity as a discrete and separate basis for arguing abnormality of mental functioning in an adult would be problematic. There would be disagreement about what constituted immaturity in adults, in both qualitative and quantitative terms, with the prospect of returning to unseemly discussions between experts.
	There is a case for allowing developmental immaturity. The current legislation is unfair in restricting the availability in murder cases of a defence of reduced responsibility to adults who are mentally abnormal. Children in adolescence may, as a result of their normal, less-than-fully-mature stage of development, be incapacitated in their thoughts, emotions and actions in ways that should properly reduce the level of responsibility for their actions. Biological factors such as the functioning of the frontal lobe of the brain play an important role in the development of self-control and of other abilities. The frontal lobes are involved in the individual's ability to manage the large amount of information entering consciousness from many sources, in changing behaviour and in determining impulsivity.
	The frontal lobes are thought to mature at approximately 14 years of age. However, in a case involving a child under 14, it would still be open to the prosecution to seek to rebut evidence of poor frontal lobe development by arguing that the child had matured to a sufficient degree to be fairly convicted of murder. The jury should be trusted to reject implausible claims, as it is with other defences based on expert evidence. Offenders under the age of 18 commit a very small proportion—about 4 per cent—of homicides. It is hard to imagine that more than a small proportion of the even smaller number of children from this group who find themselves charged with murder will be in a strong position to claim that they were suffering from diminished responsibility solely because of developmental immaturity. Even those who succeed in persuading a jury of the merits of their claim—they are likely to be in the younger age group, who commit the fewest homicides—will still be convicted of a lesser degree of homicide and can be sentenced to anything up to and including life imprisonment. For the few cases that meet the criteria, the recommendation meets requirements of justice recognised as fundamental in civilised legal systems across the world. The amendment is necessary because the principle of doli incapax has been abandoned. We will return to that later—although the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has spoken about it—when we debate Amendment 161.
	Amendments 155 and 157 are designed to explore the rationale for the new criteria of diminished responsibility. Overall, the concept of abnormal mental functioning is better than the current concept of abnormality of mind because it emphasises mental processes rather than a static idea. I strongly favour this adjustment because it offers a legislative route towards ensuring that conditions put forward in the defence come within accepted diagnostic criteria. I think that we will move towards the World Health Organisation's ICD-10 criteria, or those specified by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual—we currently use number 4. That will avoid the idiosyncratic diagnoses that have been offered in the past by many experts. Many lawyers here will have sat through some very eccentric explanations of diminished responsibility. We would like to see the definition narrowed, and I accept that the new definition will ensure consistency.
	I was concerned that the word "medical" might rule out evidence of psychological conditions, and seek reassurance from the Government that it does not. I realise that to add "or psychological" would open up the concept too much and allow in all manner of conditions that might offer more in the way of explanation of the offence than valid partial exculpation.
	The phrase,
	"substantially impaired D's ability to do one or more of",
	introduces a notion of relative incapacity consistent with the civil law, as expressed, for example, in the Mental Capacity Act. However, it adds a layer of complication to expert evidence, and the mere inability to do (a), (b) or (c) would be enough. By definition, if there is evidence that the defendant did not understand or form a rational judgment or exercise self-control, his relative incapacity is demonstrated. The argument in favour of incapacity is that any mental condition can then be described in terms of inferred disability expressed in medical terms.
	It is the criteria (a), (b) and (c) that cause problems: to understand the nature of D's conduct; to form a rational judgment; to exercise self-control. Elements (a) and (b) are very restrictive in terms of the types of medical disability that are allowed. They seem to mirror the old McNaughton rules for insanity in being highly cognitive. This raises concerns because, although there is also the self-control element (c) available, (a) and (b) imply a narrowing of the defence. The decision in R v Byrne, the seminal case in diminished responsibility, which identified abnormality of mind as anything that the reasonable man would term abnormal, was far broader in its potential use for justice. I should like to understand what the Government intend by their specification of particular types of disability. It would be better to clarify which situations might underpin diminished responsibility.
	The fact that the great majority of defendants will have to rely on (c), the exercise of self-control, emphasises that the reform is one that narrows the defence. For example, many defendants with quite severe schizophrenia would fail to come within the terms of (a) and (b), as they do with the insanity defence at present. The law allows them to utilise the defence. I remind noble Lords that in 1843, the McNaughton rules on insanity, to which these are very similar in many ways, were drawn up after McNaughton was found not guilty by reason of insanity. The rules were created after the public outcry following the case, which even involved Queen Victoria. The criteria are so stiff that McNaughton himself, who took a pot shot at Robert Peel's private secretary, would not have satisfied them. This appears to be going back towards very difficult cases of "not guilty by reason of insanity".
	With regard to (c)—self-control—although this does allow an aspect of Byrne back in, because that case allowed an "irresistible impulse", it may be argued by the Crown that it is only an irresistible impulse that reflects (c). The current proposal is very restrictive in cases where there is a determined, even planned, intention to kill. For example, a severely depressed woman may kill her children on the basis of a delusion that this world is such a terrible place that her children, whom she loves, would be better off no longer in it. She might still be able to judge whether her actions were legally right or wrong. Or a man may be paranoid and deluded about someone else, kill them in a planned way, based on delusions, yet still know that it is legally or even morally wrong to kill per se. Thus (a) and (b) would not be satisfied. Lack of self-control might also be very difficult to prove. A severely mentally ill person could be denied a psychiatric defence unless loss of control was clearly proven. I want to explore the Government's thinking on that.
	The likely effect of the proposed reform will be to limit further the application of diminished responsibility. This will occur against a background of changing social attitudes, also affecting jurors, away from allowing partial exculpation—as evidenced by the substantial drop in the number of successful pleas of diminished responsibility in the past two decades. So Amendment 155 allows for mere distortion of thinking or perception as the basis for a successful plea of diminished responsibility where the defendant was able to exercise self-control.
	I turn now to causation in Amendment 157. The inclusion of the causation element is understandable, and in giving evidence under the current law, it is always necessary for an expert in effect to offer evidence about the connection between the abnormality of functioning and the act. However, connection or offering a narrative that explains the relationship between abnormality and the act allows for a broader approach and references explicitly to causes. It seems likely, therefore, that defence experts will be cross-examined beyond what science can offer in relation to causation. However, if cause is interpreted more loosely, the problem will not necessarily arise, but of course psychiatry cannot say with hand on heart what caused a killing per se. That said, the operation of diminished responsibility in both its current and proposed versions makes it inevitable that whatever language is used in statute, doctors will be asked to say what element, if any, of a defendant's mental disorder contributed to the killing. Causation will be addressed in fact whatever the wording of the statute, but "causes" is too restrictive.
	Certainly I acknowledge that the abnormality of mental functioning need only be a cause of the killing since clearly it is only in extreme cases of severe mental disorder that a person's actions are driven solely from within themselves and without any influence on their behaviour arising from the circumstances or the words and actions of others, including the victim. Thus, abnormality of mental functioning should surely be a contributory cause or a basis for understanding the offence, but be neither a necessary cause nor a sufficient cause of the killing. Amendment 157 proposes that nothing beyond the word "understanding" is required in the statute and that causation is too restrictive a term. Again, I want to probe what the Government think will be the outcome of the use of the defence.
	Finally, I know that many of the lawyers here will say that Amendment 162 is completely loopy because it is entirely unnecessary, and I have had the benefit of discussions with the noble Lord, Lord Bach, about it. Why is it necessary to give a partial defence of diminished responsibility to a charge of attempted murder when the whole point of the diminished responsibility plea is to move from murder to manslaughter, where a range of sentence options is already available? I accept that that is a very good point.
	I want to talk about what happens in practice, because although the offence of attempted murder in legal terms is thought of as a lesser offence than murder, in psychiatric terms it is actually often as severe because the risk that the individual poses is exactly the same as the risk of murder. In terms of preventing risk to others, the person often requires a rapid disposal from the courts to an appropriate place for treatment. The difficulties lie in persuading individuals charged with an offence that was not followed through to the completion of a murder but was an attempted murder to plead insanity. At this point the only defence—if they are going to be disposed of quickly by the court—is the defence of not guilty by reason of insanity. Getting people to plead insanity is very difficult indeed. Trying to persuade a patient is hard to do because it is one thing for someone to say, "I accept that I have diminished responsibility for this act, and please put forward that point", but quite another for them to say, "Yes, I am insane or was insane when I did it". Defendants do not like to have it charged.
	What happens in practice is that juries often bring in a guilty verdict and individuals are sent to prison where they languish while waiting for a psychiatric opinion. It can take three or four months for someone with a psychosis to get out of prison and into an appropriate special hospital or regional secure unit. While I accept that in legal terms this amendment puts forward an odd proposal, I would like to explore how a similar provision can be made for those charged with attempted murder.

Lord Alderdice: I wish to speak to Amendments 151 and 158 in the name of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, Amendment 154 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and Amendment 155 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, who has just spoken. One of the difficulties for psychiatrists who have any contact with the courts and the law is that we are working on totally different sets of understandings. It is not that one side or the other is not looking for the truth of what has gone on, but in a sense the second part of the Title of this Bill points to the problem. The concepts of justice are really quite different. For psychiatrists, it is trying to understand what is appropriate for this particular person at this particular time with this particular kind of mental functioning. That is what I should like to talk about for a few minutes.
	It is important first to recognise that human beings and their mental functioning are nothing like computers. For a computer, you draw up a plan, build the machine, plug it in and, with the addition of a little software, it is operational. But that is not how the minds of human beings are constructed. They develop over a period of time, and they do not develop all of a piece. Noble Lords will know from their children—or, looking around the Chamber, perhaps from their grandchildren—that as they grow and develop, they change quite dramatically. Some aspects remain remarkably the same, but other elements grow and change. Their emotional, physical and intellectual aspects, along with their capacity to stick with things, all change profoundly, but they do not do so all of a piece. Some young people develop emotionally at a completely different pace from their cognitive, intellectual development, while others develop impulse control much more slowly, or in some cases with precocious speed—which usually leads to other problems.
	Earlier a noble Lord mentioned the example of someone aged 40 with a mental age of 10. It is an interesting rule of thumb, but it is completely meaningless because there is no such thing as a mental age of 10. In any case, does it mean someone's intellectual age, their emotional development, or something else? Furthermore, someone who reaches the age of 40 will have developed beyond the age of 10 in a whole series of ways. So the idea of a "mental age of 10" is a meaningless concept from the psychiatric point of view, and indeed from the factual one as well. What we have is young children growing up and developing different components of their personalities. By the age of 10, some will behave like 15 year-olds, while some at the age of 18 will behave like 12 year-olds. Indeed, some 15 year-olds will behave this minute like 13 year-olds, but in five minutes' time like 21 year-olds, and then a bit later to behaving like three year-olds. None of this is consistent, as development in young people is a fluid thing. The idea that we should ignore this and treat everyone as if they were 21 year-old adults or, worse still, 45 year-old adults, is not just. It does not recognise the reality of human development.
	If what we are about is creating law, that is all very well, but if what we are about is trying to make the law just, then we have to recognise the reality that people do not develop all of a piece and that by the age of 10, they are not functioning as they will at the age of 14, 15, 17, 21 or 50.
	That is why the amendments bring into the Bill the notion that not everybody is fully developed, and furthermore that the development may be impaired as part of the normal function of growing up. There were times when we behaved and thought more immaturely than others at the same stage at school. There may also be a falling back, a stunting or a disability that we need to regard as well. Some of the amendments are trying to point up that this notion of developmental immaturity may not necessarily be the same as a medical condition. That is the point. It is not all about illness. Whenever someone gets pregnant and has a baby, being pregnant is not a medical condition—it is not an illness—but many people who get pregnant also get illnesses. That is why there is such a crossover. We should not treat normal development as thought it were a medical condition; and yet, in a sense, that is the only way that they can plead. That is one element of it.
	The second element is that when people fall ill with certain kinds of mental disorders or psychosis, their perception of reality becomes disturbed. Sometimes that is terribly obvious; the person is clearly psychotic, acutely so, suffering from a schizophrenic illness of some description that is acute and severe. They completely misunderstand what is going on. That situation is relatively simple and straightforward. But there are also other situations where the person may be disturbed in their thinking right from the beginning; they are completely rational, but from a disturbed base. Indeed, one of the cases that Freud treated and wrote about was a judge who suffered from a condition like this, who was perfectly able to operate rationally in respect of everybody else, but inside they were disturbed.
	If we do not take these things into account, we will not produce a just outcome—not for children who are not fully developed; not for those who have developed, but not completely when they are adults; and not for those who fall ill with a mental illness.
	In the Bill, as has already been mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, "medical condition" is identified. I subscribe to this tightening, clarification and removal of the eccentricities and the idiosyncrasies of certain expert witnesses. I would seek from the noble Baroness a clarification that "medical condition" also means psychiatric conditions. I suspect that she will have little difficulty in reassuring us on that, but it is important to have it on the face of the Bill, so that people are absolutely clear about it.
	There is much more that one could say about this Bill, but I will finish with one particular component; the plea of insanity. This has always seemed to me to be a particularly peculiar legal notion. The whole point about somebody being seriously mentally ill with a psychosis is that they do not have insight. They do not know they are mentally ill. They believe that the explanation that they are applying to the disturbed situation is a correct appreciation of reality. When you say to them, "I think you ought to plead insanity", they say, "You must be mad. I am not insane; it is you who do not understand what is going on". The irony of it is that the person who pleads insanity is less likely to be suffering from a psychosis than the person who has really got a psychosis, because they do not understand it and have no insight.
	I trust I have at least said enough to demonstrate that if lawyers are from Mars, psychiatrists are not from the moon. They are dealing with real people and real problems. Our responsibility is to try to ensure that the laws that pass through this place and to another place encode justice in the capacity for their implementation, and not merely a set of rules that may be convenient but does not apply to the complexity of humanity.

Baroness Butler-Sloss: It is with some diffidence that I follow the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. I question whether lawyers necessarily come from Mars; I do not quite see myself in that sphere. Perhaps I should declare an interest as an honorary fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists; although I am never, rightly, allowed to practise.
	I am very concerned about the potential and actual injustice to a very small number of young people, aged between 10 and 18, who are caught at the moment, rare though it may be, by the fact that, as I understand it, psychiatrists are very cautious about finding a recognised medical condition as set out in Clause 42 in proposed new sub-paragraph (1)(1)(a). Therefore, if one requires a recognised medical condition in relation to a teenager, it would be likely, as I understand it, that a psychiatrist would hold that it would be very difficult to say that this is a recognised medical condition, because it may be an element of developmental immaturity. Consequently, at the age of 25, an individual might be seen to have a recognised medical condition, but at the age of 15 would not. Therefore, at the age of 15 that individual might be found guilty of murder, whereas at the age of 25 they would not be found guilty of murder. That, as a lawyer and not as a psychiatrist, is the nub of the problem. It is the young person who is disadvantaged compared with the adult under the proposed new sub-paragraph.
	It is a serious matter. If the Government are going to say that Amendments 151 and 154 are not appropriate, they have to grapple with the fact that it is almost impossible to tell the distinction between this developmental immaturity and a real recognised medical condition that would continue throughout adulthood. I do not know how the Government manage to do that. These two amendments—I do not think it matters which of them goes forward—make it possible to show that a child, or young person, within the age group to which that young person belongs, is exhibiting a degree of immaturity or possibly a recognised medical condition, that differentiates that young person from the normal young person who would be behaving in a normal way, which would be unlikely, among other things, to be committing murder.
	One has to recognise that Mary Bell and the Bulger murderers all behaved in quite extraordinarily bizarre ways, and when the psychiatrist saw them, as I understand it—though I have never read the reports—they had very considerable medical problems, and had had, of course, absolutely appalling upbringings. Whether or not, if this particular amendment was in place, they would have been found guilty of murder is another matter; but at least they would have had the opportunity for that situation to have been considered. It must be wrong in principle, and it must be unjust, that if you are 25 and you have a condition you will not be a murderer, but if you are 15 and have a condition that is difficult to diagnose, you will be a murderer. There has to be something wrong with that.

Lord Kingsland: My remarks will, I trust, harmonise with those already expressed during the debate on this line of amendments although, such was the depth and the sophistication of the speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and indeed that by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, I cannot be absolutely sure. Moreover, in comparison to those speeches, what I am about to say will seem exceedingly naive.
	Our amendments in this group were suggested by the Standing Committee for Youth Justice. They reinsert, as will be obvious to all of your Lordships, the Law Commission's recommendation in its 2004 Report Partial Defences to Murder, which was designed to bring the criminal law into compliance with Article 40 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
	The Law Commission's report on partial defences noted the opinion of one expert, the forensic psychiatrist Dr Eileen Vizard, who felt that the definition of diminished responsibility is defective in relation to children and young people because, as your Lordships are well aware, it omits references to developmental immaturity. The Law Commission agreed that there was a need to make these changes, but ultimately preferred to wait for a discrete review of the law of murder as it relates to children.
	Our amendments would, we believe, ensure that the diminished responsibility partial defence could be available to a child or a young person under the age of 18 if their developmental immaturity substantially impairs their ability to understand the nature of their conduct. They would be guilty of manslaughter rather than murder, giving the judge a full range of sentencing options, as the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, has already observed.
	As the honourable David Howarth said on behalf of the Liberal Democrats in another place, the way the clause in the Bill is drafted is anomalous. A person who is physically 40 but has a mental age of 10 would be covered; the same would be true of a 17 year-old with the mental development of a 10 year-old. The trial would proceed on the basis, in other words, that there was a partial defence. Yet that benefit would not extend to a child of 10 who acted like a child of 10. Our amendments would give children the benefit of being children without having to show that they were immature for their age. They cannot understand the nature of their conduct under proposed new subsection (1)(a) of Section 2 of the Homicide Act 1957 because of their developmental immaturity.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: This has been a very complex debate. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for the powerful speeches they made enabling us all better to understand things from a psychiatric and psychological point of view. That is a very important benefit. I will take very seriously the invitation of a number of noble Lords, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, to say things on the record which clearly identifies the way in which the Government are thinking. Bearing in mind the nature and breadth of these amendments, I anticipate that that might take me a little while.
	I say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, how much I appreciated his succinct exposition of this matter. Will he forgive me if I have to take just a little longer, although I agree that it is very nice to be in comity on the odd occasion?
	Amendment 151, which was spoken to so well by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, Amendments 155A, 156A and 156B, spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, and Amendment 154, spoken to by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, all deal with developmental immaturity. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, said quite clearly that the concept of developmental immaturity formed part of the Law Commission's recommendations on reform of the partial defence of diminished responsibility. The Law Commission recommended that in the case of a person aged under 18, developmental immaturity ought to be a possible basis for the partial defence as well as or in combination with an abnormality of mental functioning arising from a recognised medical condition. The Law Commission's recommendation was specifically limited to defendants aged under 18, as a number of noble Lords have said. Amendment 151 would of course go even further and apply it to any defendant. However, following very wide consultation, the Government decided not to accept the Law Commission's recommendation to extend the partial defence of diminished responsibility to include a developmental immaturity limb for under-18s and would certainly not support a developmental immaturity limb without any age limit.
	It is important to explain why we came to that conclusion. There are two reasons. The first is that there is no provision for developmental immaturity in the current law of diminished responsibility, and we do not believe that the case has been made that there is a real problem to be addressed. Indeed, the diminished responsibility partial defence should, we believe, be fully adequate to meet appropriate cases involving under 18 year-olds and adult defendants. I accept entirely what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, that there is a wide variation of maturity and that people mature at different ages, but we have to look at the mischief that needs to be cured. Is this a mischief that needs to be addressed?
	Secondly, there are some clear drawbacks to introducing the developmental immaturity limb to the defence. When discussing the concept of developmental immaturity, a distinction has been made by some between so-called abnormal and normal developmental immaturity. We heard that in this debate. An abnormal immaturity, as has been clear from various statements, is where the child is in some way unusually underdeveloped for their age. The Government believe that such abnormal immaturity is covered by the diminished responsibility partial defence we are proposing, as we would expect the child in such a case to be suffering from a recognised medical condition. So we would argue that there is no need to make explicit provision. That would also apply to an abnormally immature adult.
	Normal immaturity—if that is not a contradiction in terms—is where the child is around the level of maturity one would expect for their age but less mature than one would expect an adult to be. We accept that the proposed diminished responsibility partial defence does not make provision for normal immaturity but we are not at all convinced that it is necessary or desirable to introduce a separate developmental immaturity limb for this purpose, as was said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. As I have indicated, during our consultation we did not receive any evidence that the existing law is causing real difficulties in practice as a result of the absence of a developmental immaturity provision or that injustice is occurring in specific cases. A number of noble Lords underlined that we have to address the injustice; that point was made strongly by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice.
	I fully understand and sympathise with the concerns of noble Lords that young people who are genuinely vulnerable should be able to benefit from the diminished responsibility partial defence to murder, a point strongly made by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, among others.
	Let me reassure your Lordships about cases which are undeniably deserving and which would be categorised as abnormal immaturity. For example, if the child defendant has been diagnosed with autistic spectrum disorder and this has substantially impaired his or her ability to understand the nature of their conduct, to form a rational judgment or exercise self-control, or any combination of the three, such a child would fall within the diminished responsibility partial defence as proposed. The same considerations would apply if one were to substitute, for example, learning disability or frontal lobe disorder for autistic spectrum disorder in the example that I have just given.
	The conditions I have mentioned are all listed in the World Health Organisation's International Classification of Diseases—ICD-10—and the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manualof Mental Disorders. I hope that noble Lords will accept that these are probably the best known and most highly regarded—

The Earl of Listowel: I thank the noble and learned Baroness for giving way. My understanding is that the frontal lobes of children mature at about the age of 14, so it would be normal for the frontal lobes of a 13 or 12 year-old to be immature and therefore for those children to be particularly susceptible to impulsive behaviour. If I heard the noble and learned Baroness correctly, she said that, where the development of the frontal lobes was immature, it would be recognised as a mental condition. That probably highlights the difficulty. We are not saying that children who lack development of their frontal lobes have a mental condition but that it is just normal for children of 13 or 12 not to have developed those frontal lobes. We want the courts to be able to take account of that. Perhaps I misunderstood the noble and learned Baroness.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I am trying to say that where a child's maturity is consistent with its chronological development and falls within the normal spectrum, we have not had any evidence to indicate that it causes difficulty in cases. Where a child suffers from a recognised abnormality or a condition which falls within the recognised list that all medical practitioners use, that enables consideration of whether advantage could be taken of the diminished responsibility provisions. These lists are probably the best known and most highly regarded of the accepted classificatory systems which together encompass the recognised physical, psychiatric and psychological conditions and which the Government expect will be used when considering whether a medical condition is recognised. The noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, is right in supposing that this kind of list will be relied on to determine whether something constitutes a recognised medical condition, and these together will encompass the recognised physical, psychiatric and psychological conditions. She need not worry that that term does not encompass all those things that she would wish it to do.
	We are therefore quite sure that young people suffering from these conditions would in no way be excluded from running the diminished responsibility defence by absence of a developmental immaturity limb. On the other hand, were the developmental immaturity provision to be included, there is a risk that the defence would become too wide and permit potentially unmeritorious cases to succeed. Such a change would complicate and probably lengthen the trial without good reason in many cases where a defence of diminished responsibility should not be available as the defendant knows what they are doing and are able to function "normally".
	We recognise that the level of maturity of defendants, even within so-called "normal" maturity, will vary. Some defendants will have lower levels of maturity for their age than others, but we do not consider that such developmental immaturity should of itself be sufficient grounds for reducing a murder conviction to manslaughter, which would set the threshold partial defences too low. It should be available only where the killing was linked to an abnormality of mental functioning arising from a recognised medical condition. We are concerned that, should developmental immaturity be available as a basis for the partial defence, there would be clear potential for it to operate unacceptably and undesirably.
	A teenager, in a fight with another teenager, who impulsively pulls the knife that he is carrying and stabs the other youth to death, could seek to argue the defence, even if there was nothing identifiably—to put it colloquially—"wrong" with them and they were not "abnormally" developmentally immature for their age but simply less mature than adults. We do not believe that there should be the possibility of this amounting to sufficient grounds to reduce the ensuing verdict from murder to manslaughter.
	There is no issue of young people being denied access to the diminished responsibility partial defence or being disadvantaged with respect to adults. Wherever the defendant, young person or adult suffers from an abnormality of mental functioning arising from a recognised medical condition, it will be open to them to argue that this substantially impaired their ability to understand the nature of their conduct, form a rational judgment, exercise self-control or a combination of the three. If the jury agrees and finds that impairment of these abilities caused or was a significant contributory factor in the defendant's carrying out the killing, the defence will succeed. We believe that it is right that the partial defence should apply only in these circumstances. I hope that that explanation will assist.
	Amendment 153 would effectively negate one of the central changes that we are seeking to make to the partial defence of diminished responsibility by removing the requirement that the defendant's abnormality of mental functioning arose from a recognised medical condition. The requirement that the defendant's abnormality of functioning must have arisen from a recognised medical condition follows the Law Commission's recommendations and is intended to replace the existing terminology of the partial defence of diminished responsibility with a more helpful and, we hope, modern definition so that defences can be grounded in a valid medical diagnosis based on the accepted classificatory systems and so that it is possible to accommodate future developments in diagnostic practice.
	The concept of "recognised medical condition" represents in our view a much more helpful, up-to-date formulation than the current law and it has found widespread support. We are confident that it will prove to be a much more helpful term than the current phrase "abnormality of mind", an expression that has no meaning in current medical terminology—we have heard that explored extensively this evening.
	There is a risk that if the requirement for a recognised medical condition is removed it will allow the partial defence to be raised both by anyone who considers themselves mentally abnormal, even where there is no medical basis whatever for the claim, and by those whose abnormality of mental functioning results from actions on their part, such as consuming alcohol or illegal drugs. The partial defence should not succeed in such circumstances. I can assure your Lordships that the term "recognised medical condition" is sufficiently flexible to accommodate any changes in the consensus about whether a particular set of symptoms constitutes an actual condition. The accepted classificatory systems which cover recognised physical, psychiatric and psychological condition systems will be used when seeking to establish that the defendant was suffering from a recognised medical condition. It will also be possible, however, in relation to a condition not yet included in such a list for the defence to call on evidence from a recognised specialist who has had their work peer-reviewed or validated in some other way. A jury would then decide how to treat this evidence after appropriate direction had been given by the judge. This is important because it allows the law to keep abreast of medical developments in this area, which we have not been able to do in the past.
	As to Amendment 155, the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, would extend the scope of what must be substantially impaired by the abnormality of mental functioning arising from a recognised medical condition to include the defendant's perception of reality. The Government do not believe this is necessary or appropriate, as in most cases where the defendant's perception of reality is substantially impaired, the defendant's ability to understand the nature of his conduct or to form a rational judgment will also be substantially impaired. That part of the test for diminished responsibility would already have been met and there would be no need for the amendment. In the unlikely event of cases arising where a defendant's perception of reality is substantially impaired but his ability to understand the nature of his conduct, form a rational judgment and exercise self-control are not, we do not consider that he should be able to benefit from the partial defence as these issues go right to the heart of the case for reduced responsibility in homicide cases where there is an abnormality of mental function.
	As to Amendments 156 and 157, they would appear to be aimed at removing the requirement that a defendant's abnormality of mental functioning must have been at least a significant contributing factor in causing him to act as he did and I am happy to explain that as the noble Baroness invited me to. The Government consider it is necessary to spell out what connection between the abnormality of mental functioning and the killing is required for the partial defence to succeed. Otherwise, random coincidence would suffice. For this reason, Clause 42 provides that the abnormality of mental functioning must provide an explanation for the killing in the sense that it must have been at least a significant contributing factor in causing the defendant to act as he did. It need not be the only cause or even the most important factor in causing the behaviour but it must be more than merely a trivial factor. We believe this gets the balance about right.
	The effect of Amendment 156 would be to leave only the requirement that the abnormality of mental functioning must provide an explanation for the defendant's acts and omissions in doing or being party to the killing. We do not consider that this provides enough clarity about what is required. The defence could easily end up being either too easy or too difficult to access, depending on the interpretation of the courts, whether by requiring a full explanation so that it has to be the main cause or by allowing any explanation, however obscure, to suffice.
	I am saddened that the noble Baroness should have described her Amendment 162 in such deprecating terms. I am sure nobody would have addressed her in such an unkind way. Amendment 162 would extend the ambit of the partial defence of diminished responsibility so that it applies to attempted murder. I understand what she says about the dilemma that many people are in with regard to the diagnostic assessment of a person's condition. The whole concept of diminished responsibility, however, works as a partial defence to murder because of the availability of the alternative verdict of manslaughter. As the noble Baroness is aware, no such alternative is available in the case of attempted murder. It would in effect therefore be a full defence leading to an acquittal. I know that is not what the noble Baroness would want to see.
	The verdict of manslaughter serves a particular function in relation to homicide in that it allows the mandatory life sentence to be avoided. The same considerations do not apply in relation to other offences where mitigating factors can already be prayed in aid at the point of sentencing. I hope the noble Baroness will find that, albeit I am a lawyer, I still belong to Venus.
	For these reasons, I hope the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice, Lord Carlile, and Lord Kingsland, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, will find that the Government's reasoning on this is sound and that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. will be content to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: It falls to me as the person who moved the amendment to thank everyone who has spoken in this interesting debate on this congeries of amendments, involving all kinds of issues. I am disappointed by the Government's response. Although the noble and learned Baroness may have received few, if any, representations about this matter, I offer her the prediction that textbooks will be written after many long appeal cases in relation to Clause 42, if it becomes law. It may have to be judicially reformed—if that is the proper way to put it—because of its effect on children with developmental immaturity. But we shall return to these things on another occasion. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
	Amendment 151 withdrawn.
	Amendment 152 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.
	Amendments 153 to 157 not moved.
	Clause 42 agreed.
	Clause 43 : Persons suffering from diminished responsibility (Northern Ireland)
	Amendments 157A to 160 not moved.
	Clause 43 agreed.
	House resumed. Committee to begin again not before 9.16 pm.

UN: Responsibility to Protect
	 — 
	Question for Short Debate

Tabled By Lord Jay of Ewelme
	To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to give effect to the United Nations doctrine of Responsibility to Protect.

Lord Jay of Ewelme: My Lords, I am very glad to be able to introduce this short debate this evening, and particularly glad that it has elicited two maiden speeches—from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield and the Minister. I greatly look forward to hearing both speeches.
	It is nearly four years since heads of state and government, at Canadian instigation, adopted the doctrine of responsibility to protect, or R2P in the jargon, at the 2005 United Nations World Summit. Behind that jargon lies a principle of huge importance: a pledge by world leaders to protect their populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. We need only to recall for a moment some of the atrocities of recent years to realise the difference that this doctrine, had it been in effect, might have made—on the massacres in Rwanda, which showed that the machete is as deadly a weapon of mass destruction as the sophisticated weaponry of the West; the civil war in Sudan; the atrocities in Darfur; and the sustained misgovernment in Zimbabwe. There are others, and in other parts of the world.
	The doctrine of responsibility to protect is thus important, necessary and potentially far reaching, with the possibility of making a huge and positive impact on many of the world's most vulnerable people. R2P has also, alas, been contentious. The Europeans have, on the whole, been enthusiastic, though not always at one. The United States, scarred by the intervention in Iraq, has feared that it may lead to pressure for similar adventures elsewhere. Many developing countries fear the opposite: that R2P may instead be used to justify such adventures. The Russians and the Chinese have seen it as leading to an unacceptable intervention in the affairs of other states. So, shamefully, little has happened to put the doctrine into effect.
	Fortunately, the new UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, has recognised the need for action and, on the basis of work by his special representative, Ed Luck, has produced a report to the UN General Assembly that will, I understand, be debated next week. This provides a real opportunity for the UN to breathe life into the doctrine of R2P; and for the Government to use their undoubted influence to ensure this happens at next week's debate and beyond. The UN Secretary-General's report makes it clear that R2P is not and should not be seen as some neo-colonialist assault by the developed countries on the sovereignty of others. It should be seen for what it is: a recognition by the international community as a whole of responsibility to do all it can to prevent atrocities in future.
	The Secretary-General set out a three-pillar approach for putting the doctrine into practice: first, that states themselves—this is a hugely important point—have the primary responsibility for protecting their populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity; secondly, that the international community has the responsibility to help them do so, by encouragement, by aid and by capacity building, and to focus in particular on countries which are under stress, and before conflicts and crises break out; and, thirdly, only where a state is "manifestly failing" to protect its population, the international community has the responsibility to take timely and decisive action to prevent atrocities; such action may range from bilateral and regional pressure on recalcitrant states through sanctions to—if all else fails—coercive measures under Chapter VII of the UN Charter, but always with UN Security Council authorisation. Responsibility, in other words, is on all of us to protect the vulnerable.
	I have mentioned past atrocities that the doctrine of responsibility to protect might have averted, but the key now is to anticipate and prevent future crises. Some of these are already too clearly on the horizon. Let us for a moment consider not Darfur, which rightly gets the world's attention, but Sudan and the growing tensions between north and south, which, wrongly, do not. As part of the comprehensive peace agreement between north and south that ended one of Africa's bloodiest civil wars, the south will hold a referendum in two years' time on whether to secede. It is almost certain that it will vote to do so. It is possible, perhaps probable, that the north will try to prevent it. The result could well be yet another catastrophic civil war.
	I was in south Sudan a few months ago for the medical charity I chair, Merlin—an interest I declare this evening. I saw how fragile is the recovery from the civil war. I saw, too, how, within the south, weak government is leading even now to local conflict, exacerbated by incursions from across the border. If to this already explosive mixture is added a civil war between north and south, there will be a massive humanitarian disaster.
	The point is that we know all this now; we do not need to wait until disaster happens to try, too late, to stop it. Early warning of crises, as the Secretary-General's report makes clear, is an essential element in putting R2P into effect, so that the international community as a whole—neighbouring states, regional organisations, the developed world—recognises its responsibility to act. There could be no clearer example than Sudan of the need to work hard now to put that doctrine into effect.
	Against that background, I ask the Minister to ensure that putting the doctrine of responsibility to protect into effect gets to the top of our foreign policy agenda, with the departments concerned, especially the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department for International Development and the Ministry of Defence, working closely together so that the tools of our foreign policy—diplomacy, economic aid and our peacekeeping forces—are properly co-ordinated. I am not one of those who advocates the reintegration of the FCO and DfID, but I believe that there is a need for and scope for much closer co-operation between the departments and, in particular, between the instruments of our foreign policy that they control. I ask the Government to look again, as a number of Members of your Lordships' House have already urged, at the misguided cuts in our conflict prevention budget.
	In addition, I suggest that we work to ensure the UN General Assembly reconfirms R2P at its meeting next week and agrees on the urgent need to put it into effect; that we make the doctrine a central plank of our foreign policy dialogue with the Obama Administration; that we work within the European Union, for which the Minister is uniquely well placed, and in particular with the Swedish presidency that takes office tomorrow, to put the doctrine at the top of the EU's agenda too; that we work equally hard—I hope that I am not pre-empting here the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Howell—to put responsibility to protect at the top of the Commonwealth's agenda—no issue plays better than this to the Commonwealth's unique strengths; that we work with the Canadians, as instigators of the doctrine, and as G8 hosts next year, to put the doctrine high the G8 agenda; and that we build up a dialogue on responsibility to protect with the African Union, the charter of which includes the important and welcome principle of non-indifference to grave crimes committed within African Union member states.
	Speeches about Britain's foreign policy regularly vaunt the influence we can bring to bear through the network of groupings to which we belong. I have drafted many such speeches myself. Here is an opportunity to show what we mean. Finally, Britain's commitment to implementing this doctrine should be a criterion against which any British Government should be judged, so I greatly look forward to hearing the speeches not only of the Minister but of the Opposition parties too.

Lord Parekh: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, for securing and introducing the debate. I extend a particularly warm welcome to my noble friend Lady Kinnock of Holyhead. She brings to this House great experience, wisdom and courage as well as a fine record of commitment to the cause of justice.
	I endorse the United Nations report on the responsibility to protect. It identifies four major evils and tries to tell us how to anticipate and deal with them. These evils are genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. I have nothing against the doctrine of responsibility to protect. In fact, I endorse it wholeheartedly. However, as the document is formulated, there are important gaps. I will briefly highlight five of them, and hope that the Minister will feed them into the appropriate channels.
	First, those four evils overlap. It is not easy, for example, to distinguish between genocide and crimes against humanity or between genocide and war crimes. Equally importantly, these evils arise differently. Some arise because the state is evil. Others arise because the state has collapsed. In one case, the state is responsible, in the other, the absence of the state is responsible. These two situations need to be distinguished because they call for two kinds of responses. The United Nations document tends to homogenise them and fails to appreciate the need for different strategies.
	Secondly, we need to evolve a global consensus on what obligations and responsibilities the outside world has. We tend to assume that the West, or the world at large, has the responsibility to intervene in situations of this kind. There are major powers that take a different view because they have suffered at the hands of the West's doctrine of intervention. China, for example, places great responsibility on the doctrine of sovereignty and does not think that it is its business to interfere when evils of this kind occur. The Chinese have made that very clear in their official policy documents. To some extent, India has tended to take this view as well, because it does not want outside powers to interfere in Kashmir or with lots of other internal problems.
	The United Nations document makes the mistaken assumption that there is already a universal consensus on intervening in situations of this kind. That is arrogant and presumptuous. We must develop a global consensus by encouraging a dialogue between the western and Chinese points of view. Both make important points. Unless we do so, we will be working at cross purposes.
	The third point that needs some attention is the document's total absence of mention of the need to restructure the United Nations. The United Nations as it is constituted, its structure and procedures, reflect the world of the late 1940s. It is dominated by the Security Council, where five members have the right of veto. The United Nations is seen as just another stage for its members to pursue their national interests. It should become a genuinely global forum where members deliberate in a calm and disinterested manner and reflect the viewpoint of humanity at large. If the United Nations is to carry moral and political authority it will need to be far more representative than it is. Muslim voices and the voices of other developing countries need to be given greater prominence. I should also have thought that the United Nations would benefit greatly if it had a standing commission keeping a global watch on the world at large and alerting the world community to potentially dangerous situations.
	Fourthly, in situations of the four evils that we talked about, military intervention sometimes becomes necessary. No one can deny that. But military intervention cannot be the first course of action. When it is undertaken, it needs to be guided by an appropriate ethics, which is absent. There should be clear guiding principles as to when it should be undertaken to ensure consistency in international action. It should be authorised by the United Nations and well judged, because military intervention works in certain situations and not in others. It would not work in Myanmar or Burma today and it would not have worked against Zaire under Mobutu. When the legality of military intervention is in doubt, as it was in the case of Iraq, we should make it a point of law to refer to the International Court of Justice, which would have helped us greatly in the case of Iraq. The purpose of military intervention should be not to run the country or discipline the natives and sort them out but rather to restore normalcy and hope that over time the country, now handed over to its citizens, will be able to manage its own affairs.
	My fifth and final point is to do with the need to explore non-military forms of intervention. We have got into a binary opposition: either we abstain and do nothing, or we move in with armed forces. Is there no other way; no middle space that we should be exploring? I should have thought that there are half a dozen ways that we could move in such situations. Countries involved in these four evils could be expelled from international bodies, or recognition given to them in international law can be withdrawn temporarily. We could involve other agencies in civil society—for example, the churches, which wield enormous power. I am struck by the fact that the Buddhist monks endorsed the murder of Pol Pot or that the Vatican itself stayed quiet in relation to Rwanda.

Lord Brett: My Lords, the clock shows that six minutes are up. We will be reaching into ministerial time.

Lord Parekh: My Lords, I want to end by saying that we need to explore non-military forms of intervention.

Lord Patten: My Lords, the term United Nations has been much used in the formidable tour d'horizon by the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, which I greatly enjoyed, and by the noble Lord, Lord Parekh. I hope that in particular the three right reverend Prelates on the Bench of Bishops will forgive me if I say—and it is to a certain extent like spitting in church—that I have not always been the greatest admirer of the United Nations on every occasion. I hope that the United Nations gets it right next week in the laudable aims that the noble Lord, Lord Jay, has set out. The noble Lord is right: we must always try to help, as we always have done under Governments of both colours. The aims of the responsibility to protect are high and good, but it is much easier to assert or say as some new United Nations norm that if a national Government attack their own people or fail to prevent their starvation then they forfeit their sovereignty, than it is to do something about it in a practical way or find constant and reliable partners to help those who are in the lead to help in this task.
	I am also aware that behind the laudable aim of the responsibility to protect there are others who have further agendas that might not be in the national interest of powerful nations such as the United Kingdom. I hope that it is not politically incorrect to talk about national interests in a context where the United Nations is in the forefront. Of course we need to help those who need help, but we should do so throughout by maintaining our ability to take sovereign decisions to dispatch our Armed Forces or to deploy diplomatic pressure or apply and then sustain sanctions or whatever.
	Yet I think that there are others who use this excellent instinct of wishing to try to help to promote another and more nebulous concept of some, at present, equally nebulous international community which is going to take over and do all these things. There are a number of organisations which I find rather mysterious but increasingly powerful, referred to as international non-governmental organisations, such as the Open Society Institute or the World Federalist Movement. They wish us to float away completely from national interests, voters and democratic legitimacy, and devise new so-called guiding principles, without much democratic foundation, for members of what is known as the broad international community. They are all anointed by something that I have seen called the "emerging international judicial consensus", whatever that is, and are all supported by lots of new UN special envoys, although mercifully not yet any UN tsars. I advise the UN not to adopt tsars in this concept. I think that the idea of a responsibility to protect is excellent but its broad principles, which I strongly support, must not be hijacked by those who have other agendas along the lines of world government.
	Thirdly, we must not let other countries off the hook in sharing the burden of doing rather than sharing the fun and gratification of rhetorical grandstanding. There will always be pleas from others, once the international conference room oratory has stopped, that they are too poor or that they simply do not have the military strength to help, leaving the United Kingdom, the United States—which is so often criticised at the same time as it is looked to for help in these areas—and a few others to bear the unshared burden. I am sorry to use diplomatically incorrect language but it is shameful how little some of our European neighbours have contributed to burden-sharing, not only in recent conflicts but in helping in the humanitarian spin-offs which are so manifest in the world around us. That said, we must stand ready to help throughout—I entirely support what the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, said—although I do not think that the UN charter creates any legal obligation as such on members of the Security Council to act in concert in this respect.
	Fourthly and lastly—and well within time, as the Whip on the Front Bench will be pleased to hear, let alone the Chief Whip, who I am flattered to see in his place listening intently to my speech—there is one very great conundrum that underlines and underpins this issue, and that is the dilemma to which the noble Lord, Lord Jay, referred. First, do great countries such as the United Kingdom have the moral authority to intervene in anything at all? Secondly, if we decide that we have the might, the means and the moral authority to intervene with some of our allies and friends, any such intervention, however well intentioned, will be seen as imperialism by other means, with stronger nations trampling on the sovereignty of troubled nations. That would certainly be the cry should we be at the borders of a Burma or a Zimbabwe, let alone an Iran if things turn worse there. I, for one, do not know what the answer to this conundrum is, and I hope that next week's deliberations help us to that end.

The Lord Bishop of Wakefield: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, for making this debate possible. For five and a half years in the 1990s, I was the Archbishop of Canterbury's Secretary for Ecumenical Affairs, so international relations remain one of my key interests. For me, it has been an exciting 10 days. Introduced during the hustings and election for the Speaker in another place, I thank all who have helped my introduction into the House to be painless—so far!
	Wakefield diocese is shaped rather like a slim flying saucer—for those who believe in such things. Nevertheless, despite our odd shape, we have made ourselves impossible to miss on your journeys north and south. We have put landmarks on the main routes—Ferrybridge power station on the Al and Emley Moor mast alongside both the MI and the Leeds mainline. Halifax, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Barnsley and Pontefract are just some of our well-known towns.
	Despite being land-locked and part of God's own country, Wakefield diocese has strong international links with Sweden, Australia, Pakistan, Tanzania and Georgia. The significant Asian populations in Huddersfield, Halifax and Dewsbury mean that a proper internationalism and a care for security issues are de rigeur for us. For that reason alone, I am enthusiastic to speak in this debate. Since the time of St Augustine of Hippo, Christian ethicists have participated in public debates and private reflection to help refine and clarify what constitutes the appropriate use of military force in statecraft. Participants within this dialogue—jurists, ethicists, politicians and generals—have sought to shape and develop the just war tradition so that its relevance is retained even when applied to entirely new security challenges. Among the Bishops, the the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, has contributed seminally to these debates in this House. The development of responsibility to protect as an emerging norm in international relations is evidence of the traction that the just war criteria have in setting out an understanding of international and domestic politics. This sets the political within a context of moral concerns and considerations.
	After having taken the initial step—namely, the conceptualisaton and fundamental recognition of R2P—the challenge now is to look at ways in which we can move towards a clearer definition and operation of the responsibility to protect. Only by working through these issues will the international community be successful in preventing crimes against humanity or, at the very least, ending them at an early stage. If it can do that, the international community might yet fulfil its responsibility for the preservation of peace in the 21st century.
	There is a risk, however, that in all this we might become too state-centric, so to speak. R2P breaks once and for all with the state-centric concept of humanitarian intervention with its overt reliance on military action. In its place stands a three-pillar concept of security, involving a responsibility to prevent, a responsibility to react and a responsibility to rebuild. This understanding of human security has been part of the core of the R2P norm from the Canadian sponsored report in 2001 through to the publication of the report implementing the responsibility to protect by the UN Secretary-General in January 2009.
	In a 24/7 media culture, the focus is invariably on our responsibility to react, but our priority must be on a responsibility to prevent. There is a specific role here for civil society and the churches, as the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, has already suggested. As I noted, Wakefield diocese has formal links with two Anglican dioceses in other countries—the diocese of Mara in Tanzania and the diocese of Faisalabad in Pakistan. It also has vital links with the churches in Georgia. Last summer I was able to issue a statement on behalf of the Church of England urging Georgian restraint and condemning the disproportionate use of force by Russia in the tragic war there.
	Our relationship with Mara in Tanzania goes back more than 20 years and has as its motto in Swahili, "Bega kwa bega", which translated means, "Shoulder to shoulder". This motto, which is particularly apt given today's debate, has been practised through many conversations, visits and joint projects by the people of both dioceses which continue to enrich the link. I was there myself last October. It is the myriad of relationships like this that underpin and give meaning to our understanding of responsibility to protect. I very much hope that, in thinking about what steps need to be taken to give effect to the United Nations doctrine of responsibility to protect, Her Majesty's Government recognise that there are those on this Bench who believe that human rights and security are indivisible and that the responsibility to protect is therefore a matter of direct concern for everyone and not just Governments.

The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, I shall, if I may, be the first to congratulate the right reverend Prelate on his maiden speech. He brings wisdom not only across the Thames, as he mentioned, having been the Archbishop's secretary for ecumenical affairs, but across the Tiber as governor of the Anglican Centre in Rome from 1990 when he also joined the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission. I think I can say that he was the senior Franciscan "Brother of Penance" because he led the ancient Third Order of St Francis in its European province from 1991 to 1996. He is also chair of the Liturgical Commission. He has obviously set a very good example because his sons, Aidan and Gregory, are both ordained priests. We look forward very much to his future contributions.
	I speak as a former staff member and trustee of Christian Aid and I thank my noble friend for introducing the debate. My experience is of small-scale projects where outcomes are measurable and perceptible, and so I can feel a warm glow inside sometimes, unlike my friends who have had to wrestle with great international institutions. I feel empathy with those, both in government and outside, who have promoted civil society within the international system, such as Mr Bernard Kouchner. However, I have misgivings about the ambitions of some human rights workers and politicians to effect regime change in places such as Burma within the new UN doctrine.
	The doctrine has already gained support in Westminster, I hear. A group of MPs led by Mr John Bercow, the new Speaker, have signed a resolution in support of responsibility to protect in Burma, so it is coming close. Many people regard parts of the world such as the Congo as a priority for the UN because of the extent of human rights violations over a long period. I admire the way in which the UN force MONUC has survived with the minimum of personnel in very small, remote outposts, and I admire still more how experienced NGOs, such as CARE International and Merlin, have been able to offer protection to thousands of displaced families with very little back-up and protection and rarely any local recognition.
	It is precisely because of those years of conflict and neglect in those countries that it would be absurd to pretend that the world has a duty to protect all its vulnerable citizens, because manifestly it does not and cannot. Either the infrastructure is there or there is no political will to do it. The same goes for Zimbabwe and other countries where tyranny has presided over various forms of chaos. This doctrine is evolving and the world has to pick and choose to implement it. Protection, child protection in particular, has long been a hallowed concept within the UN and the civil society extended family.
	The General Assembly did well to introduce the R2P doctrine because it belongs directly to the rights-based tradition, but there are many grey areas. Protection can be a de facto consequence of any humanitarian programme. Social exclusion, for example, is an area of development abroad where the responsibility to protect can work with very specific targeted aid programmes, but it will not be among the programme objectives—it just has to happen. I am thinking of work among the Dalit communities in India where there may be daily violence against the low-caste with limited protection from the NGOs trying to defend them.
	I am also thinking of various projects of NGOs in various parts of Afghanistan. Here I feel that NGOs are different. They constantly have to stretch their own security rules to the limit because of a separate moral responsibility, while the UN agencies are more likely to operate strictly within the brief. One thinks of UNRWA staff in Gaza. It depends on the personality of the people involved. Only rarely will the off-duty work of an NGO be recognised by the national Government.
	I hope that I have a healthy scepticism about what the UN can do. I wish that it could have done more in Palestine and Sri Lanka, but the odds were stacked against it, including the world's apathy. It is easy to list the failures of the international system and difficult to discern what my noble friend Lord Hannay, who cannot be in his place, recently called the,
	"emerging patches of genuine progress and rules-based order".
	The work with the International Criminal Court and peacekeeping in the Balkans and east Africa are good examples of this.
	The implementation of a responsibility to protect is a constant challenge in Africa—I am glad that my noble friend mentioned Sudan. Iraq has so dominated the airwaves that the UN has had no chance of showing its successes. I have had recent personal experience of the remarkable achievement of the UN in Nepal and Kenya, though these cases, too, may be listed as unfinished business. Everything in UN terms is unfinished business. I recognise the particular role of our own diplomats in these examples.
	I pay tribute to the UN and voluntary agencies who work with refugees and the displaced. In Kenya, the Dadaab camps were constructed for 90,000 refugees from Somalia. They now have to protect more than three times that number, growing at 7,000 a month. Wherever the NGOs offer an umbrella, the migrants will come in. The R2P is concerned with crimes against humanity but it is not an open-door doctrine. It has to be policed or the genuine refugees will be twice victimised.
	I look forward to the maiden speech of the new Minister, whom I warmly welcome to this House.

Lord Addington: My Lords, it falls to me to be the first person from these Benches to welcome the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield to this House. His was a thoughtful speech that helped point out that there are as many ways of looking at this problem as groups who will be involved in it. This is one of those debates where I know more about the subject now than I did when it started. I see his contribution in that light.
	When I found that it had fallen to me to respond for my party on this subject, I went on a fairly steep learning curve—which has got steeper as the debate has gone on. It was explained to me in six points: just cause; right intention; final result; legitimate authority; appropriate means; and reasonable prospects of success. As we went through this, the noble Lord, Lord Jay, spoke of learning, study and getting in early to see whether the intervention can be successful. That suddenly made me think that that is the way to go, but it also terrified me. If you get in early you will make mistakes. You are bound to. There is no way you will not make mistakes. Whether getting in early to make the world a better place—literally, we are talking in global terms here—is a price worth paying for the mistakes made is a horrible decision to have to make for everybody concerned.
	The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, pointed out that the two coming superpowers, China and India, probably have a different take on that to those within the traditional western world. If the UN is to mean anything, the opinions of China and India—particularly if they are in a bloc—must count for a great deal. If we could achieve consensus between the traditional western powers and China and India about defining a doctrine which can be acted upon, early intervention might become a vague possibility. I hope for an intervention that will not have to go down the route of military activity. Clearly the worst-case scenario is a bad or unsuccessful military intervention, something which creates resentment.
	Iraq will probably hang over us for a while. Has Iraq been a successful intervention and did it have sufficient authority? We have been over this dozens of times. My opinion and those of my party on this are well known. Have we created a successful state there or have we merely managed to have a pause in an ongoing civil war? I hope the first is what has happened, but a possibility still exists of something hideous happening and intervention there.
	As for the value judgments of our own society being placed on other societies, the ruling sections of Iran—the great culture that is Persia—might regard the threat and existence of this as a good reason for cracking down on any opposition to strengthen and protect their vision of what their society should be. It is a difficult job to balance these matters.
	I look forward to hearing the Minister sum up. She could have given herself a rather easier ball to catch the first time. She has an extremely difficult job because the main problems with this doctrine concern the type of intervention, where it should take place, and at what level. We should stop people being slaughtered in genocide or ethnic cleansing—I hope that no one in the Chamber is in favour of that in any circumstances—but where do we intervene and how do we do it successfully? The real question is how we can get a doctrine that commands enough support on a worldwide basis. It is a difficult problem that we can only hope to get right most of the time. It would be interesting to know what the Government think are the limitations of our decision-making at this point.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, for initiating this short debate. He was very patient when he had to wait a bit. We are all looking forward to the maiden speech by the new Minister for Europe, the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock. I want to make sure that I leave her enough space to make her speech, which will be a little tricky. Tonight, she has to be the Minister for the whole globe because we are talking about global issues rather than just European ones. We were all very interested to hear the contribution by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield, who reminds us of the huge international role of the church. Although it may be fashionable to denigrate spiritual and religious aspects, they are becoming more important than ever as we try to bring sense into the near anarchy of the new globalised system. The role of the right reverend Prelate and his like will increase enormously in coming years.
	The doctrine we are taking about, the responsibility to protect, is beyond reproach. The aims are almost unchallengeable. They are to codify the humanitarian intervention procedure within states. This idea was born before 9/11, at the end of the previous century, but since 9/11, it has become many times more searing and relevant to our deliberations about what we are supposed to do. On the one hand, there are states that are living entities of people who form together under their own rights, customs and governments, good or bad, and on the other hand, there are the searing demands of a globalised world with atrocities pitched into our living rooms and onto our websites almost every night. One has to ask whether one can generalise or make general rules, or whether each situation is bound to be fraught with its own conundrums and dilemmas.
	I do not know the answer to that but, looking back over the past decade, one has to ask whether it would have been helpful to have had firm rules on intervening in Rwanda, or in Bosnia to deal with the horror of Srebrenica—the worst tragedy of humanitarian intervention that I can remember in my lifetime—or in Kosovo, Burma, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Darfur, Zimbabwe—very controversial—or Somalia? What help would it have been in the agonies over Iraq and whether we got United Nations agreement, or whether we are right to be so involved in the Pashtun frontier area between Afghanistan and Pakistan? There are many other places as well.
	One can see the need for a general framework, but within it, there will still be agonising decisions about whether to intervene. It is a bit like the proverbial elephant. The case for intervention, whether soft and mild or military and hard, and whether it is likely to succeed is like the elephant; it is difficult to describe and generalise but easy to know when we see it. When we have the horrors of ethnic cleansing etched on our minds or see the agonies of deliberately inflicted starvation, murder and torture, we know it is a case for action. The evils and cruelties of aggressive terrorism have been brought to our doorstep—we see immediately that they, too, are a case for international action.
	We then face the problems, discussed this evening, of what kind of intervention; and if it is military force, which of course is the last resort but a resort that we keep resorting to, what kind of military force? Is it self-defence—standing by—or is it becoming involved on one side or another in internal civil wars and other horrors? When we consider United Nations military intervention, do we need new force structures to deal with the asymmetric warfare that we have encountered in Afghanistan and elsewhere, rather than the traditional bringing together of various forces by contributions from different countries that go off to war and often find themselves powerless?
	We must also take account of the debate on the nation state. I am not talking about the old doctrine of sovereignty, but about something new. Boutros Boutros Ghali, who was one of the best Secretary-Generals of the United Nations—he was sacked after one term, but he was a superb man—talked about the essential need for a profoundly renewed concept of the state to give the isolated individual identity and fulfil deep needs to belong and love a country. That is in contrast to other, more fashionable talk about the nation state being finished and being superseded. Still others, as we have heard this evening, have talked about the shift of power away from western hegemony and into the hands of the rising Asian states.
	I will just say that these feelings of the need to belong and have an identity, even in countries that are sadly disadvantaged, are not reached by talk about the international community, or by remote parliaments and assemblies. This is because the whole texture of international relations has changed very fast in the past 10 to 15 years. Thanks to the internet, international relations are no longer confined to officialdom and to formal relations between Governments. There are a mass of connections and interfaces between semi-public and non-governmental bodies. This is the new fabric that Governments and officialdom sometimes find difficult to grasp. It is the new international network, of which the Commonwealth, which I was delighted to hear mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Jay, is a vital part.
	In this new landscape, we must look at the old institutions and reform them. The UN, the Bretton Woods establishment, the World Trade Organisation, the non-proliferation treaty regime, NATO and the European Union—somehow, out of all of this, a fresh, global will must be distilled and sewn together. Perhaps we should start with the democracies—including ours—which are not healthy at the moment; then with the international institutions of the 20th century that all need revising; and then find the true consensus needed to protect all mankind. Just a thought.

Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: My Lords, there can be few Houses in any of the Parliaments of the world in which a new Member is permitted to speak on the first day of membership—and from the Front Bench at that. Clearly, the famed generosity of this House begins at the moment of entry. I am very grateful for that, and for the warm welcome that has been given to me by the staff, by long-valued friends in the House and by new acquaintances in all parts of the House.
	In my previous life in the European Parliament and elsewhere, I often had reason to admire the work of the House, particularly the Committee reports produced by your Lordships on issues related to the area of work that I was engaged in—foreign affairs, international development policies, trade policy and the European Union. The quality of the short debate this evening testifies to the experience, expertise and commitment that your Lordships bring to all these vital matters.
	I therefore express gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Jay, for his kind words, for initiating this debate and for the opportunity to highlight the crucial significance of the concept of the responsibility to protect. The noble Lord, particularly through his work as the chair of Merlin, is well aware of the need for speedy and effective responses to emergencies.
	I think that we all have seared on our memory the tragedies of Srebrenica, which was mentioned, of Rwanda and of Darfur. Now we grapple with how to deal with the tragic plight of civilians today in Somalia, in Kinshasa in the Democratic Republic of Congo, and in Sri Lanka. My interest in R2P is personal. I was in Rwanda and what was then Zaire in 1994 during the immediate aftermath of the genocide. The memory of those days will stay with me all my life. I have also been to Darfur, to Chad, to south Sudan on a number of occasions, and to the eastern Congo. All the suffering I have seen testifies to the need for us to undertake the shared responsibility, the binding commitment to tackle the structural causes of conflict which include social and economic inequalities, impunity—something that really has not been mentioned—and injustice. I can confirm that the UK Government are fully engaged and indeed were in the vanguard of efforts to ensure that the world summit agreement reached in 2005 included a clear and ground-breaking commitment to R2P. But while we have the tools and the instruments needed to fulfil the responsibility to protect, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, the biggest challenge that remains is how we can make it all work.
	First, it is clear that we must strive to create a culture of the responsibility to protect, a culture that is accepted across the world. This is work in progress for our governments. We have to build confidence in the principle that states have a fundamental responsibility to protect their own populations, and indeed we have to bring clarity and acceptability at the United Nations and European Union level to the concept of the responsibility to protect. Secondly, R2P must be a holistic concept in its development and in its application. Many noble Lords have spoken about the four R2P crimes; those crimes of genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing. But R2P must not just be about responding to such atrocities. It must relate to conflict prevention, mediation and peace-building. It must include efforts to increase awareness of potential tension, as the noble Lord, Lord Jay, said, and listening and then acting when the alarm bells ring.
	Thirdly, we must tackle the misconception that R2P is somehow an initiative of the developed world, one that is being imposed on the south. The concept of non-indifference to crimes, which has been mentioned, was actually in the Constitutive Act of the African Union 2000, long before the UN adopted the responsibility to protect. It was the African Union that took an early lead in responding to the violence in Kenya last year when an estimated 600,000 people were displaced. We must also tackle the misconception that R2P is somehow a justification for military intervention. It is not about imposing solutions on countries from outside. It is about encouraging world leaders, politicians and representatives of civil society to play their own parts. It is as much about responsible sovereignty as it is about intervention. That is what I mean when I talk about the culture of R2P.
	The Government continue to follow closely developments at both the EU and the UN levels in the run-up to the UN General Assembly debate, which I understand is to take place on 20 July. The UK has welcomed the reaffirmed commitment to R2P in the December report on the implementation of the European Security Strategy and the 2007 EU Consensus on Humanitarian Aid. R2P is a priority for the General Assembly, and I am glad to say that the member states of the European Union have confirmed this. Further to those actions, the Government continue to explore how we can ensure that awareness of R2P informs all our work on conflict, on development and on human rights at the domestic level, at the regional level and globally. We will therefore continue to work to secure better and more effective responses to the four R2P crimes and we will support the building of better early warning systems—which is essential—more deployable military and civilian capacity, and more effective regional reaction, particularly from the African Union and from the European Union. All experience tells us that international diplomacy and mediation, and being prepared to use all the tools at our disposal, is how we should proceed.
	The Government have welcomed the UN Secretary-General's report, which is generally well balanced and shows a determination to change those words into deeds. We are particularly focused on the UN General Assembly and the resulting opportunity to build a real consensus on the 2005 agreement and secure practical measures related to the implementation of the Secretary-General's report. This task will involve a high level of political commitment for the foreseeable future. The Government understand that and are committed to fulfilling that aim.
	Before I finish, I would like to address some of the outstanding issues raised by noble Lords. I would like to congratulate the right reverend Prelate on his maiden speech. It is comforting to have a fellow maiden speaker at this debate. I thank him for what he said.
	I am also very interested and supportive of the references to South Sudan made by the noble Lord, Lord Jay. I absolutely agree that the peace agreement is looking very shaky at this time. I met people from South Sudan only last week and there is a great deal of doubt and apprehension about the referendum and about the prospect of an election. There is this terrible uncertainty, which, as the noble Lord says, is something we need to watch very carefully in order to ensure that there is no tipping over into yet more fighting and yet more conflict in a part of Sudan that has suffered so much over so many years.
	I agree that R2P has to be at the top of foreign policy. Noble Lords can rely on me to understand this and constantly refer to it. It is also important to say that we are working very hard in the FCO, DfID and the MoD; working together perhaps more effectively, and for the long term, to ensure that we can be more coherent in the work across departments.
	My noble friend Lord Parekh talked about the five gaps. I can say very clearly that I will take the appropriate action the noble Lord mentioned and will follow through on his points.
	R2P is not a legal obligation. That is a very important point for us to realise in this debate. It is a moral and a political commitment that we have made. When you use the term "R2P" people often become very defensive in situations of tension. Quite often you can move things forward more effectively if you do not use that vocabulary.
	It is very important for us to say that the suspicion about R2P, to which some noble Lords have referred, is something we need to be aware of, conscious of, and respond to appropriately. It is also important to mention that action can be taken, including that in Chapter 7 at UN level, if military intervention is considered to be appropriate and necessary; that is something that we would be looking at.
	We have had a fascinating and wide-ranging debate, and I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions. Everyone in this House, including the Government, is committed to working with the international community, to create what I have referred to as a culture of the responsibility to protect.
	Finally, on the need to protect, the aim has to be to give resolute and effective meaning to those words, "never again".

Lord Jay of Ewelme: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, perhaps I may once again welcome her to this House. I congratulate her on a truly impressive maiden speech, combining real experience and deep personal commitment to the issues we have been discussing. The noble Baroness brings great experience of European issues in their broadest sense to this House and, perhaps even more importantly, a real understanding of Europe and great experience of another Parliament. As her speech has shown tonight, that will be of huge value to your Lordships' House, and I am sure that others will join me in saying how much we look forward to further contributions in the months ahead.

Noble Lords: Hear, hear.

Coroners and Justice Bill
	 — 
	Committee (4th Day) (Continued)

Amendment 161
	 Moved by Baroness Murphy
	161: After Clause 43, insert the following new Clause—
	"Diminished responsibility: children
	Section 34 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (c. 37) (abolition of rebuttable presumption that a child is doli incapax) is repealed."

Baroness Murphy: I move Amendment 161 with a degree of pessimism. We have already referred to the reversed provisions of doli incapax today, and I will be very brief. I was hoping that this would be debated before the other amendment on children, but I throw it in anyway and offer it for discussion.
	This amendment reverses the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 which, in turn, reversed the previous law that children under the age of 10 could not be held criminally responsible for a crime. The law with respect to children who kill is very different in England from that of most other European countries. It is not just that the age of criminal responsibility, at 10 years old, is exceptionally low, but also that the doctrine of doli incapax, or being incapable of crime, was abolished in 1998. Moreover, the distinction between manslaughter and murder means that those convicted of the latter are subject to a mandatory penalty of indefinite detention, with its duration assessed by the Home Secretary and not by the courts or the Parole Board. This means that children who have not yet reached puberty are treated as if they were adults but their handling puts them at particular disadvantage. There was a very celebrated case that preceded this law.
	There are several reasons why this seems quite unreasonable to me. First, there is extensive evidence which we have talked about before that the important development changes continue throughout the teenage years. To reduce this to the question of whether children know right from wrong is highly misleading. Even pre-school children appreciate this distinction, although they approach it more in terms of fear of detection and the punishment that will follow rather than from internal justice principles and concern for the victims of wrong acts.
	During early adolescence, young people's thinking tends to become more abstract, multi-dimensional and self-reflective. In addition, they are able to generate more alternatives in their decision-making. There is a marked increase in emotional introspection, together with a greater tendency to look back with regret and look ahead with apprehension. The transition to more adult modes of thinking does not emerge, as we have already heard, from any single age, but it is clear that it is very far from complete at age 10. As with any aspect of development, there are marked individual differences in how children achieve maturity.
	The second consideration is that homicide is rather different from the rest of juvenile delinquency in that it has not shown the same marked rise over the past half century or so. Nevertheless, homicide and serious juvenile delinquency have much in common.
	Thirdly, children who commit homicide are likely to be seriously psychologically disturbed—again, as we have discussed—and often have experience of very serious adversity. This means that they will usually require residential care in order to receive the intensive psychological treatment and rehabilitation that they urgently require. However, it also means, very positively, that rehabilitation is a realisable goal.
	As with any other criminal behaviour, there is a crucial need to balance the protection of society and the rehabilitation needs of the offender. Changes in the law should be viewed in terms of meeting both. That is, the change should not automatically mean that children receive a reduced sentence; rather, the argument is that they should be treated with respect to the differences between children and adults. This means that if we are to fail with our previous amendments—although I hope that we shall support the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, and his colleagues if they come back with their amendment on Report—there would be a need to reintroduce doli incapax in that it is suggested that it would be reasonable to assume a lack of capacity below the age of 14 but to reverse the assumption over that age.
	In either instance, it should be open to the courts to decide in the case of that particular child with that particular background and with that particular crime that there was capacity below the age of 14 or that there was not over it. It is essential that careful consideration be given to the state of the offender before release, but this needs to be done with the benefit of expert advice from the Parole Board—I am afraid that the Executive would not be my choice. It would also be helpful for juveniles to have one offence of homicide, removing the distinction between manslaughter and murder with the implication that follows from that. I beg to move that we reinstate an amendment for doli incapax.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: In the light of the Government's refusal to recognise the concept of developmental immaturity in relation to children, the lack of a transitional stage in a child's development as a potential criminal between the ages of 10 and 14 is a matter of great concern to these Benches. Set at 10 years of age, the threshold for criminal responsibility in England and Wales is one of the lowest in western Europe. It is 13 in France, 14 in Germany and 16 in Spain. A number of those countries also have something akin to doli incapax in force as well as a higher age of criminal responsibility. Indeed, it is perhaps shocking that the age of criminal responsibility in this country is 10, whereas for males in Iran it is 14 years and nine months. Horrifyingly, for females in Iran, it is eight-and-a-half years, but perhaps we need not trouble with that further at this stage.
	Our age of criminal responsibility is set so low as to cause concern that, without a special category of developmental immaturity, there is a risk of unjust conviction of those who simply are not of a capacity fully to understand what they are doing or have done. Even the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child has expressed concern about the United Kingdom's law of juvenile criminal responsibility. That committee said that it might be incompatible with Articles 37 and 40 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child to have our age of criminal responsibility set so low, leading to a recommendation that,
	"serious consideration be given to raising the age of criminal responsibility throughout the areas of the United Kingdom".
	That comment was made by the UN before the abolition of doli incapax. It would seem therefore odd that the abolition of doli incapax has not been accompanied by raising the statutory age of criminal responsibility.
	As a result of all the legislation that has been enacted so far, in particular the Crime and Disorder Act, and the proposed legislation we are considering tonight, all children of 10 years of age and more will be presumed and treated as having the same moral culpability and ability to conduct themselves as an adult. We illustrated in the last debate that it could be even worse than that—that children could be in a less advantaged position than adults.
	In the case of C (a minor) v DPP, Lord Lowry, quoted from elsewhere,
	"No civilised society regards children as accountable for their actions to the same extent as adults".
	Without the measures which the noble Baroness has been urging, or something like them—she has put it broadly and I wholly support her—we will be left as a society which regards children not only as accountable for their actions to the same extent as adults but we shall leave children as presumed to be accountable to the same extent as adults for actions for which in fact, as any good psychiatrist will tell us, they are not actually fully accountable. There is a real danger that if we pursue this legislation to the letter in its current draft form there will be a severe injustice to children which it will be left somehow for the courts to sort out.
	In the penultimate debate, the noble and learned Baroness, the Attorney-General, suggested that what was being proposed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, was a fudge. If the Government will not meet these problems, as described by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, the fudge will simply be handed on to the courts. The Court of Appeal will have to produce the fudge in order to safeguard the interests of children. That should not be the task of the Court of Appeal; it should be the role of this Parliament and this House to produce legislation that meets the apprehended justice of cases like those we have in mind.

Baroness Butler-Sloss: This is a further attempt to encourage the Government to recognise that there is a real difference between children and adults in criminal offences. Of particular importance is the debate before dinner about developmental immaturity. There is now another effort by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, to attack the same point. It is particularly important that the Government remember that the four Children's Commissioners of the United Kingdom were extremely critical of the approach towards the criminalisation of children, and young children in particular, in this country. The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child was also very critical. It praised the Government for some improvements but it remained extremely critical.
	There is a danger that the Government of the day, and I suspect all Governments, are overinfluenced by the popular press and particularly certain sections of the press that demonise children and treat all children who are old enough to go to court and who commit really serious offences as evil. The Government should be giving a lead and not responding to the soundbites of the newspapers in relation to the way in which children are to be treated in the same way as adults.

The Earl of Listowel: I regret that I cannot support the letter of these amendments, but I certainly support their spirit. I will reflect for a moment on the context. Your Lordships will recall the UNICEF report which put us at the bottom of the developed world in terms of child welfare. That was followed by the report A Good Childhood by the Children's Society, which again highlighted how poorly we perform in many ways for our children in this country. Subsequently there was a report from York University which put us in a league slightly above Romania, Lithuania and other countries with regard to our children.
	One thinks about the way in which we treat our social workers, who are supposed to protect children, the low status they have been provided and how they have been treated as pariahs—or the staff at children's homes, who work with the most vulnerable and challenging children. There are members of staff paid the same as or less than staff at supermarket checkouts. We should think about the context in which this takes place.
	I commend all the excellent work that the Government have done in the past 10 years in seeking to remedy some of these situations. However, if we look at ourselves in the mirror, we have to say that somewhere or other we have rather lost our way in terms of prioritising the welfare of our children. That may be another reason to take this opportunity to look extremely carefully and think again about how children are treated in the courts. Perhaps we should be open-minded and think that perhaps, given the cultural context in which we operate, here is an opportunity to make more modern how we treat children in our courts.

Lord Patel: I wholly support the amendment and with a greater degree of optimism than my noble friend Lady Murphy—my optimism being that the Minister, after listening to the powerful arguments being put forward, will listen and think again and that the Government may back this amendment.
	It cannot be right logically to think that children of 10 can be treated the same as adults for their behaviour and be subjected therefore to the same justice system or criminal system. The noble Baroness has a lot more experience in this matter than I have, as an obstetrician, and she is right in saying that children of that age may be severely psychologically disturbed and require more care rather than trial in the courts. So I hope that the Minister will back the amendment.

Lord Alderdice: I had not intended to speak in this debate, because many of the things that relate to it were discussed during the debate just before the dinner hour. However, the more I thought about the Attorney-General's response, the more troubled I became by the message that I got from it. Below the age of 18—and no differentiation seemed to be made between those who were 10 and 11 and those who were 17 or 18—there was, first, no persuasion that there was a problem or even a potential problem of injustice here. The difficulty that was adduced was that we should think about teenagers who produce knives and stab somebody and whether they should not be held responsible. We have to think seriously about the problems, but the idea that we should somehow hold 10 and 11 year-olds as responsible in the same kind of way as people in their twenties, thirties, forties or fifties seems to me extraordinary.
	One thing that we need to think about is that, physically at least, many children are becoming more mature earlier; the better they are fed, the more mature they become at an earlier stage. Therefore, the kind of ages that might have been appropriate for responsibility 20 or 30 years ago may be a little bit lower. On the other hand, children are now, through television, the internet and other things exposed to a degree of disturbing stimulation that may actually make it more difficult for them to cope with some of the stimuli that they are getting than children were before. I do not regard this as a simple matter; it is a complex and difficult matter. However, if one pulls back from it, does one really believe that it makes any kind of sense or justice to hold children of 10, 11 or 12 as responsible as when they are in their late teens or their twenties? People in this Parliament decided many years ago that they would change the educational system of this country because they did not believe that it was fair that decisions should be made about children's educational capacity at the age of 10 or 11. I speak not about whether that was a good idea or other, but that was the decision that was made. The decision being made now is that children of that age can be made responsible for the most serious crimes that we can imagine. That seems to me to be an inconsistency of approach and understanding that I find difficult to struggle with. I do not suggest—and I know the noble Baroness does not either—that this amendment solves all the problems, but I did feel that it was necessary to come back, even after a short period of thought, to say to the Minister that I really think we have a problem here. It may be that perhaps we should be looking at the age of 13 or 14 if people find it difficult to say 16, 17 and 18-year olds, who get involved in all sorts of activities. There is such a profound difference between the child of 10 or 11 and the teenager of 17 or 18, that simply to lump them all together seems to me to be inappropriate, yet it seems that the arguments did that.
	The Government will undoubtedly appeal to the noble Baroness not to press her amendment; I appeal to the Government to take her amendment and the spirit of it back and to see what they can bring forward to satisfy us at a later stage.

Lord Bach: I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, for Amendment 161. It is an important subject. I am very conscious, as have all speakers been, that we went over some of the general ground in a long and important debate before our adjournment. The amendment is about the presumption of doli incapax that was in our law until 1998. I would like to make some comments in my reply dealing with that issue and about some of the other issues.
	I take exception in a gentle way with the noble Lord, Lord Patel, when he claims that young people between the ages of 10 and 18 are subject to the same justice system as adults. They are not. They have youth courts, and the way they are disposed of by the courts if they are found guilty could not be more different. The trouble that is taken with young people—indeed, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, was making this point before dinner—who are convicted of committing offences is different in kind from the trouble that is taken with those over that age. I will return to that when I have dealt with the subject matter of the amendment.
	The doctrine of doli incapax involved a rebuttable presumption in criminal proceedings that a child of between 10 and 14 years of age did not know the difference between right and wrong and was, consequently, incapable of committing crime. This is a probing amendment and obviously we could not just put the law back to what it was by the amendment, so let me try to explain why we do not believe that that doctrine should be resurrected.
	In the White Paper No More Excuses, published in November 1997, the Government said:
	"To prevent offending and re-offending by young people, we must stop making excuses for youth crime. Children above the age of criminal responsibility are generally mature enough to be accountable for their actions and the law should recognise this".
	That remains our view. It is both the right approach and, as it happens, also the view of the vast majority of people who live in our country.
	Our communities are entitled to be protected from anyone who sets out to cause harm and to have confidence that the criminal justice system will protect them and deal with those who break the law, but will take special notice and care of those who break the law but are of a young age.
	The presumption in practice led to delays, to cases being dropped and to unjust, paradoxical and unfair outcomes for victims, for witnesses and, not least, for the young person in question. In addition to having to prove both that the defendant committed the criminal act and that he or she had the required mental state at the time to the criminal standard— that is, beyond reasonable doubt—the prosecution in cases involving a child aged under 14 would have to rebut the presumption. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, that I am not sure that some of those other countries that he mentioned, where the age of criminal responsibility is older, have quite the same standard and burden of proof as we have in all criminal proceedings in this country. That presumption could be rebutted only by clear positive evidence that the child knew that his or her act was seriously wrong at the time when he committed the act concerned. Mere proof of intentionally doing the act concerned, however terrible or obviously wrong that act might have been, could not establish the requisite guilty knowledge and rebut the presumption.
	That would bring back delay into our court system, and nothing is worse than delay, particularly when it involves young offenders. It would also bring back the need for further evidence, quite separate from the evidence of the offence itself, to show that the young person knew what they had done was not just wrong but seriously wrong at the time when he or she committed the act concerned.
	We are determined that people who offend—and that includes young people, too—take responsibility for their actions. We should not return to a culture of excusing such behaviour. That is in no one's interests, least of all those of the young people themselves. We all accept that there has to be a point at which an individual becomes responsible for what they do. The courts of course take account of the young person's age, first, in how the case is conducted. It is conducted in separate courts from adults, in youth courts set up specifically to deal with young people. Account is taken, secondly, in the disposal: the sentence handed down.
	About a year ago, we spent night after night discussing a criminal justice Bill. We discussed for a long time, the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, may recall, issues surrounding youth sentences: what should we do with young people who are convicted of offences? The last thing being suggested was that we should somehow treat them as adult offenders. So it is not fair to say that they are somehow subject to the same justice system, as though there is no distinction made between young people and adults under our justice system. Every difference is made, particularly in terms of venue and how we deal with them if they are convicted.
	I very much took on board the point of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, about social workers. They are completely unfairly denigrated, and I find astonishing the amount of money that experienced social workers can get for a lifetime's work in that profession compared to, for example, what young lawyers can sometimes get. The comparison is ridiculous under our system, and it is right that a Minister should say that social workers do a fantastic job, particularly for young people. I thank the noble Earl for his comments.
	The suggestion was made that we do not react enough as a Government, whatever party is in power, to the influence of the press—and the popular press, at that. Well, sometimes that may be true. I concede that, of course. However, on the case that I think the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, was hinting at that led to a change in the law—the Bulger case—after their years in custody, being looked after as young offenders should be, those two young men had a chance to start a new life. That was done with complete hostility from large sections of the popular press, but it was still done. Governments and the system do not always give way to popular opinion of that kind. I hope that some credit can be gained from that.
	I end on a slightly lighter note, if there can be a lighter note on such a serious subject. I invite noble Lords and the noble Baroness in particular to look at the Mail online this morning, which deals with a study from the University of Chicago, which makes the point—I am not saying that this is right or wrong, but it is an interesting part of the argument—that,
	"Children have an inbuilt sense of right and wrong, researchers claimed last night".
	I hand my copy to the noble Baroness. There is an argument that states that children do have that inbuilt sense. They are talking about the ages from seven to 12. It is part of the argument that psychiatrists and others use. We would be taking a retrograde step if we were to change the law back to what it was prior to 1998. I take many of the points that are made about how children and young people are different from adults and need to be treated differently from adults once they have been convicted under the criminal justice system. I would argue that they are treated very differently under our system and that is the right way for us to carry on.
	Having thanked the noble Baroness again for instigating this short debate, I ask her to withdraw her amendment.

Baroness Murphy: Some of us believe in original sin and others do not. Perhaps the Daily Mail is going back to the original sin hypothesis. I am aware that in expressing my views on the amendment I was not hoping that we would obtain a reversal in the legislation; I admit that. I noticed that those who appeared to speak in its support were not speaking for the amendment. With friends like that, who needs enemies? I am grateful for their apparent support for this amendment. Nevertheless, I wanted to highlight that we hark back to the Bulger case. Such cases have caused deep concern, although I recognise that it has been said that the system has managed to take care of those young men. Nevertheless, the procedures that they went through were troubling and led to a tightening of the way in which young children were viewed by the courts in law at any rate, even if the reality has been somewhat different.
	I hope that our debates before the adjournment will come back strongly, because we have not reached the bottom of how we address this point. I would much prefer it if, on Report, we thought clearly about developmental immaturity in relation to children, because there seems to be enormous support around that issue. This amendment does not seem to be the one to have made it there, so I beg leave to withdraw it.
	Amendment 161 withdrawn.
	Amendment 162 not moved.
	House resumed.

House adjourned at 9.49 pm.